Invisible Ships podcast
Invisible Ships podcast

Episode 11 · 1 year ago

Murder Lake- The End?

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This is the final episode of the Murder Lake series (at least until an arrest is made) In this episode we try and tie up loose ends, weigh and debate the top theories and tell you about our plans for the future. However, this episode is still packed with surprises! We will be playing new and exciting eye witness testimony and some amazing audio clips we found while combing through the BCI files. 

Yeah, listen, I may, I may have something for you here in a couple weeks. I kind of know what this is all about at this point. Okay, all right, he was being extorted. Bright and I think you, Wiley, refused to pay up. But they can they be? They came to collector we killed ready protect. All time for the invisible ships podcast, where we talked about everything from true crime to the truly weird invisible ships the coast. Okay, I got the invisible ship's team reassembled. We're all back in the studio together. What's going on, Danny? Nothing good to be back all. Everybody out there had a great thanksgiving. Yes, I know we did. Posted some pictures. We all got together and Darren Cook feel good Turkey. Yeah, I cook for days, but I'm ready to go on this and I think we got a really mash out what we know. Yeah, but before you do that, though, you're going to totally skim over the green bean fire. Yeahs are all horribly doing, isn't when? I want to know that you almost burned your house down. I took care of it without an extinguisher, but let's just say your mom was quite impressed with my lungs. Well. And the other thing is you brin to Turkey this here and it was delicious. Yeah, definitely put a plug in for brining, because the way to go. Hey, you got to right, it's delicious. Yeah, okay, I want everyone to know that this is going to be the last episode that we're covering the Brian America case. We have some other very interesting cold case, so we're going to tell you about later on that we want to get into. It's another kind of local in Ohio case. But this is going to be the episode, guys, where we're going to recamp everything that we've learned about the case, go over it, follow the timeline and then we're going to talk about what we think, we know, what we what we've learned and just what isn't sitting right with those don't work exactly. And at the end of all this it's important to know just like Victoria never gave up, we're not going to give up either until it's completely solved. So if there's any new information, just from talking about it with you guys, it seems like there's a lot of shoes to drop. So I'm sure something will drop and will do another episode give an update. We're not walking away from it, but you know, he kind of don't want to beat a dead horse either. Well, I think like what we've got right now is we've got questions and we want to turn to you guys and just pose where we're at, just coming everything that we know and what we've gone through, the BCI report, and just, you know, hashing it out. And I mean, you know, every theory we go down, it's like this could be it, but then this doesn't make sense, or this doesn't, you know, like they just saidn't all that up. So this is the episode where we're hashing out where we are and, you know, if we get evidence coming back, if we get people coming forward, and this won't be the last episode for now. I do think we're going to be back on at some point because I think this case is still moving. Yeah, I think that if Paul, when he makes his break, you know, there's a new movement the case, like will go right back to it and we'll help Paul on and just continue to like following the case. But as of right now, where it stands, I think we've covered everything. I think that we don't just mean the US three, but you, me, Dan and all of our listeners together, like we really push this thing. I think made a lot of people come forward, got a lot of great testimony, but there really isn't much more to for us to do as podcasters. Is it's now it's up to these actives and law enforcement and the professionals. But take it. Yeah, and we've also picked up, you know, during this time we've picked up another person who's a huge asset that is now looking through the files with just eyes that we don't have. You know, we've got another guy who's talking about the Mysterious Cohen. I am talking about Cohen. We've also got, you know, the the guy checking out all the video surveillance and stuff, and that's that's some shit. That's Scott there. Thank you, Scott. Your help is is huge. He's been going through the video footage and cleaning some of it up. Yeah, it's really amazing the details that people find looking at this stuff. And it's, you know, like cone and the other person you mentioned are we talked about them a lot, but there's a lot of people out there just find stuff. And on our next next so after the new year, we're going to start our next season about another Ohio mystery and I really looking forward to seeing what people can find about that one because it's another cold case. It's kind of been stuck. But due to us being kind of Ohio based PODCAST, we're actually going to be making some field trips and digging up information that I don't think anyone has taken the time to do. There's me some library time. So now we're going to take a look at some sort of hanging threads from the investigation. These are some tips and leads and possible motives that people have sent to us that we've come across ourselves. We don't necessarily believe all these are any of these.

I think the three of us all have different thoughts in these, but we just kind of want to share with you a couple the other one, just to address them. Yeah, and where we can, we're going to include the actual BCI interviews that either directly contradict or cooperate. Right, we're talking about all right, guys, let's just jump right into it. We're going to go over kind of everything and talk about what we've learned and what doesn't add up, what what is clashing with official line. So take his all the way back to the last normal day of Brian Americans life the night before he disappeared. So that was December fifteen, two thousand and sixteen. That's where Brian went to the Christmas party up at the winking Lizard, right, and we know that for sure that he was there. So, but in fact, an interesting piece that came up from our Cohen source was he believes that's that at least part of that party could have been funded by next to subsidiary kind of like company. So that's kind of an interesting things and dying kind of thing, right. But again, like, we can't prove that, so we can't put that in the fair column. But this would be interesting. If it was, it would kind of make sense, right, because this is the time. Yeah, then would not even like R I can do that. There's lobbyists, I guess, at all levels. Yeah, but so that kind of goes back to, you know, like everybody kind of thinks, like what happened that night? You know, at the party. There was a party. That's not a usual thing. You know, why did Brian See at the party? You know, we don't have anything that Brian saw. Like we don't have, like, you know, information of who all was there. There's no video surveillance in the visa report of the winking Lizard Party pulled or anything like that, which is kind of interesting because I feel like wouldn't you want to know who all was right around Brian Right before all this happened? So Brian left the Christmas party and he went to the movies. Now we got a little piece of information that's highly unconfirmed, but just putting two and two together here, we've got that a gentleman that came forward and talked to you, Ricky Hmm. That placed the brace Brian at potentially Christy's. Somebody called me and we had a discussion and he was at Christie Strip club the night of December fifteen. Now he knew that from after the fact. Well, here that he was at the Strip club and he said that these three guys came in. He said three, stay there for maybe twenty minutes and left, and he also said he saw them over by the ATM machine. So listen, I can I can tell you this that, talking to Paul, Paul says he sees no ATM withdrawal from Brian Macron at that time. But this guy does say that the person he thought was Brian Mack and went to the ATM with True Money, and the only reason thought was macarns, because later on he recognized Brian and media. It's based on the ATM withdrawal record or lack of record, and the timeline and we already kind of know his movements for that night. I don't I'm not sure that that person at Christie's was Brian. I mean he went to the movie with my Costello that so that the interesting part about that is in my costell has interview with the BCI. So first of all mike notes also at the BEC yea that he doesn't like movies but Brian was really coaching him to go and they left the winking lizard at around the same time. But then Costello notes that he got their way before Brian did. We actually have a clip of Mike Costello's interview with BCI and we're going to play that right now. It Brian was an exceptionally good mood for him, you know. I mean he's kind of a guy a lot of the time, but he was like laughing and carrying on, and I mean if somebody's going to meet me the next morning he wants to kick my ass, I'm Gonta put the trail are together. Yeah, and in a great mood about it, you know. So, yeah, he's telling all these people it's and then he's asking me. He's like, you want to go see star wars tonight? I Hate Star Wars, and I'm like no, not a star Wars Guy, not a star Trek. I sign was here Star Wars Day. Apparently he is. I mean he went to all the movies when they all and the opening night. Yeah, so it's like, Oh, I got to see star wars tonight. It's opening night. I want to say the show was like ten thirty, ten twousand and ten thirty and Brian, I don't want to see star wars, like, Oh, I gotta see it opening night. I got nobody to go. You gotta go with me. And I'm like look, ask everybody, I'll pay for your tickets. I don't want to go. I said, find somebody to go. If you don't find somebody to go, I'll go as I all right, deal. So we had the Meda County Township Association Christmas party that evening and it was at we can lizard and Bruns agoin three o three. So we all go up there and I think he was asking Adam Frederick, one of the county commissioners, to go, but Adam was going out of town the next morning...

...or had to go into work or something. But so Adam couldn't go. So that's evenings going on. Is like, Mike, Nobody can go. I've asked everybody, nobody can go and I'm like all right. So literally like twenty minutes before we left the party, said I'll go to star wars. So we leave the party kind of follow each other up forty two too, I think it's Reagan where the movie theater is up there, and go into the movie I don't see his car like he pulls in and it's not a lot of cars in the parking lot. So I'm like well, I'll walk in and I kind of see him coming from somewhere in the other are of the parking lot and we go and get our tickets. Excuse me. As we're walking into the show, he says, Hey, can you call my wife and tell her you're here at the movie theater with me? And they said, I don't have her number. He's like how do you not have her number in your phone? I said I've had no reason to call her. Ever. I said, how do you not know her number? I said, where's your phone? He said on, my phone is dead. I said you don't know her number off the top of your head? I said I know my parents and all my siblings numbers up that there's about all I know. You know, but I said how do you not know? He's like I don't have her number. I said all right, I'll send her a facebook into message. That's like the only other thing I could think of. So it's probably still on my phone. So I sent her a message and said, Victoria, I'm with Brian. We're going to subsital line lines. We could probably look it up, and said, you know, going to the Star Wars movie starting at whatever time. Never heard anything back from her. So you know I've hung out with Brian socially. I've been to when, maybe two of his daughter's graduation parties. I've been to a super bowl party over at their house. He's been to parties at my house. But when we were walking into that theater and kind of made the left and started up two steps and into a row, it's like the hair on the back of my neck just stood up. I had this weird feeling like something was not right and he walked into the movie theater. He went into the fourth seat and I was like I'm not sitting close to him, so I sat on the aisle seat and left two seats between us and we didn't talk much during the during the during the movie, and then as we were leaving, I still had this uneasy feeling and we're walking out just kind of like two people that have never talked to each other and we get up to the Lib and he's like, you'll be there tomorrow morning. Right. He had wanted me to come up here at forty five in the morning because this resident was going to be here at eight o'clock of the morning, and he said bring your gun as a brand I have my gun on me most of the time anyway, but if I'm bringing my gun and you think somebody showing up to beat your ass or kill you, I hope to God you've notified the police. And he says, yeah, Jim's going to be there. Jim Sanford, who was our lais on to the sheriff's office and I said I hope he's going to park his car somewhere so that it's not going to be sitting out in obvious. He'SAS yeah, we chuck to Rick, where's going to leave a truck out? Jim's going to put the car in the garage and Jim's going to be in the utility closet, which is literally right around the corner, right here, and I was going to sit in the front office and pretend like I'm signing checks. So I feel like I'm scartter bring and just running all I'm trying to hit these things. And so, long story short, I didn't even know he had asked Rick to come up here. Rick our service director. So at twenty in the morning I'm sitting on my couch boxer's Tshirt, drinking a cup of hot chocolate, watching the morning news and Rick Calls Me and he's like where are you at, and I said I'm on my couch Wach to the news. In ten minutes I'm going to go up and brush my teeth, throw some pants on and drive out up there. And he says, I need you to come up here now and Hurd the fuck up. So there's this time lapse, unsure of how much, but enough that he was waiting in his car for a while for Brian and then decided, while I just go in and he was waiting inside for a while and then Brian showed up. So I gotta say whatever delayed Brian Before the movie couldn't be Chris. He's would have to be after the movie. So after the movie. But then, but then the movie kind of puts you right up to when Victoria sell them, right, I though my didn he don't really, as I think they went to Christie's is on. Only next time. Backpagecom, once worth six hundred million dollars, shut down by federal investigators after avoiding any kind of conviction for years. The online classified add site has been accused of making sex trafficking possible. We have information that we really haven't talked about, which I think is a major part of the could be a major part of the case, and that's the amount of times that Brian access that backpage website. Yeah, so before we go too far in that, I guess we should tell everyone that may not know that back page was kind of like a craigs list, right. It was a start selling from the wikipedia page that I remember, because we did talk about this, and it started off as a craigslist for like and insanely short amount of time. Before. I just became for sex. It's a way to get escorts, basically. Yeah, and we have that Brian, based off the beast areoporty, accessed back page five hundred and eleven different times...

...between February seventeen of fourteen to December fifteen of sixteen, with six access times in the last four days of his life. Look, guys, we got to get into some difficult stuff, some something that we were not looking forward to discussing or bringing up, but it's impossible for us to be honest with you and do what we think we can do to help the macron family in this case, which is putting all the information out there, because there might be somebody listening that knows something that will trigger a memory. And you know what we've been trying to do. We've been trying to bring justice for this family. We cannot in good conscious leave this out. It's not something, again, that we were looking forward to discussing. It involves allegations that Brian Macron may have been using escort services or visiting with prostitutes. We believe that macron was murdered. I think we're unanimous on that. He was a good man. He didn't deserve to die. I don't want this to cloud your judgment of him. This is just one aspect of his life and we don't know how true any of this was. But going through the BCI file I found a phone call that Paul Hartman, who is the macron family investigator, made BCI. He's talking to Charlie at BCI and he's going over some of the things that he found that relates to this and I think it's at least important that you listen to it. Yeah, listen, I may. I may have something for you here in a couple weeks. I kind of know what this is all about at this point. Okay, all right, he was being extorted, Brian, and I think he finally refused to pay up and they came and they they came to collect and they killed. That's that's how this is going to play out. Yeah, what do you what do you think he was being extorted, because I've gone through all these records and I see that he was sending money through a third party from December of two thousand and fifteen until November of two thousand and sixteen, and I those records are on the way. Okay, so I'll have them in a couple of weeks. Okay, I was. I was to anybody through a third party. You've ender you don't like Western Union and all that, that kind of thing. But I can tell you I've I know, the last contact he had with a prostitute and it was after that last contact that all this shit started. I got, I got a pattern of like six suspicious events, but the last one is no question it was. It was the last such event that I can find. October twenty two of two thousand and fifteen. And sure they're after for the payments started. So okay, I'll let you know what's happened when I get it. Okay, okay, but but I think the recipient of the money is gonna be kind of conclusive to some reasonable stand at least in your I like you to go a little bit more into it, just because we don't. We we tried to not. We're not trying to be selicious. PODCAST. We personally have spent too much time this because there's not a whole lot of evidence really, but it is onlike page four or five of the twenty two page bast BCR report they put out, like it's out there and before I askue you my question when we're kind of pinned to put in the whole backpage thing was actually shut down and able twenty and eighteen by the federal government because of all the sex stuff. Like it wasn't in two thousand and sixteen. It was known what it was for, unfortunately. But like don't you have information about visits to backpage, tracking with where he was in the country on trips and everything too? So I'm definitely not the backpage expert here, but going through that file it gives you like roughly, like you can search a city, and so there's different times he was searching a city. There was different ones that did say like prostitute in the search you know. So there were some and then there were some that didn't have that. But I don't know. I mean you can't get to that stuff anymore because it's all shut down, so you can't go back and like look, but there's definitely some with the word prostitute in the in the search category. Okay, so let's just do the what if game then. So what if he was looking at prostitutes? Would that could be a motive for him to be extorted? It could be a motive or and be murdered? Could it be a motive for him to commit suicide? Could it be any ally? One of those, you'd have to say it's definitely something that I think you got to really take into account when you're looking at this, you know, and it also has the benefit of being probably one of the more realistic theories out of all the ones that we have discussed and we'll discuss. It's just some point, at a point, be kind of theory. Instead of Hundre people involved. That's these that's a trick for committing suicide because you're involved with prostitution. Is kind of a stretch. I bet it happens. So then I think it's a dangerous game and your these are rogue people.

Murder would be just as likely, but the question is something with. That is why I take a prostitute to a township hall. I mean, you know, wouldn't that kind of like tie you to be extorted? Well, we don't. I mean way have no evidence that he took a prostitute right. Well, I mean they had blood in his office, you know, and stuff. Is what I'm coming from, right. It's all this a lot of conjecture, but I just I think we owe it to the people that listen to our podcast and to ourselves as honest people, to just when you open that BC I report and see that in one of the early pages, is like looking for reasons why people die. Like, I think you know we've talked about this before, but it's like when you here someone died young, you'll I see what what happened. It's like yeah, Oh, they got hit by a trance like okay, at least that makes sense. Like so I got murdered. We're looking for all these reasons when there's kind of like a glearing like vice crime. Well, because that makes sense because murders are pretty rare things, thankfully right, and most people that get murder they're either in some kind of love triangle, like the crazy acts that kills the girl that left him, domestic partner kind of murder, or a stranger murder, is rare, or like a lot of people that are involved in the underworld get killed by other people in the underworld, like in the drug game or whatever. But so, if you did throw his lot in with these people and we're not here to judge him, and we don't, we can't really say more than what we have in front of us that he was looking at these sites, then he could potentially have been messing around with some dangerous people. And just to play it all out, the quote unquote, I rate township person phone calls if you're, you know, if, just to play it all out, if you are seeing prostitutes and they find out that you're a public figure and probably has a decent amount of money, especially compared to the people that are doing the prostitution, that's an easy target for extortion and maybe he decided, you know, maybe everything he told about the story of the irate fillager or whatever they called it, was true, except instead of an angry townsperson, it was the person that was coming to fight him about the extortion. I'm glad that you brought up the anger resident because, you know, from the very beginning I said it seemed like a red hearing and in the way that you just presented that, Danny, when you go back to Brian, made clear to people when he would get a phone call he would leave the area and they're ask him later on like what's happening? Why are you upset that? I was an anger resident, and everyone that has been interviewed by BC I'm talking to all the different township trustees and people that were close to him. They all try to fix the problem. I tell him, like Po will tell Stanford, tell the police or right whatever. And he never did that, because we have at least Sanford, sestamony right, Sandford never heard about the angry resident or act. Sanford said that macar never told him. But Sanford, which? So let's talk about the township story and stuff. Oh No, but so they all have the same story and we which kind of makes sense because they've all been talking. But one of the things that all that they kind of talked about is like Brian was doing things like hiring somebody without anybody's approval and then firing him. And it's actually Sanford's son, I think, our nephew relative, somebody that's related to see the Stanford. And you know that he did all of this without getting any kind of an approval on we got there from Luna Bauer right from last hours and about rowing cextimony. He hired Jim Stanford Son at one point, never told us about it, just did it. He I'm going to point we don't do that. Then he made him supervisor without telling us to you don't do that. He would authorize purchases of things and nothing that we didn't need, and then we would have done anyway. But we just don't do it that way. Yeah, normally he would say he would just fly off the cup and he was gonna do what he wanted to do and that wasn't like him. Well, it all happened within that time frame. So so they claim that he did this hiring and firing. They also claimed that he was shredding a mass amount of papers and you know, like, I talked to Victorian. It's like Victoria were missing papers and she's saying no, like doesn't make any sense. I had papers at my house, but they're will kind of paperwork could he be generated? But you know, it was in the jewelry business, so there was some invoices and receipts and stuff like that, and some of them might be sensitive and that's that's the kind of stuff that ones to the next pipe mine theory, I would say, or even the fire department if there's some money stuff going on in the background, which then goes back to so you know, but who know, we're going back to what about the picture back in the township hall? Of The tope that's misplaced with a bag underneath it, and we'll put it on our website so you guys can see. But was he going through something back there? And then that's when somebody, somebody found out that he was starting...

...to snoop around. Yeah, I just want to say, because I was on the call with collen when he was walking through that and I was not really very excited, that are interested because, like, if you look and it's just an orderly stock room, then that picture it's like a toad out of place and there's like a Duffel bag underneath the shout at the shelf and it looks like someone got caught in the act of doing something or you know, like it looks like something happened. Never tagged for evidence. That bag okay, and so it was like a Duffel bag kind of thing with a zipper they're talking about, and I'll put the picture up on the website so you can see it. And it wasn't called out like he said. It wasn't t don't reason we know is because Cohen just said and look through all these pictures, and so I like calling because his mine work sold differently. You know. I just had this thought while we're talking about this, that there we can look at every piece. I was were talking about. This is actually fascinating and you could find the motive for a murder, you could find the motive for suicide in it. So like, for instance, the paperwork. Now, is Brian Exposing something and that made somebody mad and wanted to get rid of them? Is that what he's doing? Dude? See the one that got caught stealing paperwork out of the office? Or No, you're right. Like my opposition to the suicide explanation isn't the motive, because he clearly had. There's a lot of motives here and you can make automotive so many money there. There's we're so far away from a suicide. It is the way that he died. It's more so on this. But what's the next step? Where's the next league coming? Is it something to do with something? Can then we also have information, of based off of cell phones, that he was also going to a private investigator, not Paul Hartman, but somebody else locally, and was even there on like Thanksgiving day before this in the morning and was discussing. Now BCI followed up with this gentleman and he denied everything with it, right, but this is huge because this guy, and since he's denied it, I'm not a good to name them, but he was highly respected retired member of the sheriff's apartment in Medinah County. Had A lot of law enforced experience. It was in a private practice and when you look at Brian's phone, workers my God, the last day, in the last two days of his life, he's reaching out to all kinds of law enforcement people on their private cell phone numbers and having conversations and texting back and forth. I mean, what is going on? Why is he doing this? Is He finding out something that's big, which is trying to but he didn't do that before, right, it all was kind of escalating yecember now again. So, like I said, there's a devil's advocate angles all this. Brian was working on something that would be getting new radios for all the Medinah county deputies, or at least the deputies that we be working through Litchfield or law Fiat, excuse me, through law Fiat. So he was part of that. And so would that be a reason that he would be calling them off hours, sometimes late at the night, late in the night, around like ten or eleven pm, having discussions with high ranking and very, very high ranking members of Madonna County law enforcement. I mean, I don't know, it seems kind of crazy to be working so far off the clock, yes, especially like if he was, if you are at the top of Madonna kind of law enforcement. Granted, it's not Cook County or something like that, but still you be like, you know, the radio thing, we can handle that at eight in the morning, and I in the morning probably delegated to somebody lower than me to worry about that or purchasing them. Sure, county don't make purchasing decisions. It's but he could have been friends. I mean, who knows, but clearly I think the more we learn and the more we will go over these records and stuff, he knew something was going to happen, that he knew something was coming. He could almost feel it and see it in all this stuff. Yeah, but I think you did too. But again, his phone records are very interesting. There's a lot of texting and a lot of phone calls to a lot of high ranking Madinah County law enforcement officials up until just a few hours before he goes dark. And that's the other thing. Brian's phone goes dark for a while, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah, and and and also, he would turn off his tracking at different points because Paul wasn't able to track him at different points. So they're was he he did not want to be known where he was going. Probably what happened in the night of the movie. And why of the world would you do that as a normal person? You know what I mean? Right now, he knew something was going to happen. I really do feel that. And so like going back to Sandford now. So all of the trustees in their interviews kind of have...

...this similar story and Charlie, the BCI agent, asks pretty much, I think, every one of them, what the you know as far as the relationship with Brian, and then he also brings up Sandford, and all of them, you know, claimed Sandford was really close to Brian. Now and and Sandford's interview with the BCI, he kind of distanced himself throughout it. And this isn't me trying to like read into it. I mean you pull the records and listen and judge for yourself, but he said that they basically had a falling out and even Charlie notes that in a later interview, saying that Sandford was reporting they had a falling out over the last year. But everybody else we talked to claims differently, you know. And also, you know, Sandford put in his retirement the day that Brian went missing. So just weird. Things could be totally unrelated. Or is it something weird? Is there something? You know, why Distance Yourself? So many people in in a situation like this, you know, put themselves closer to the person, you know, where it's like, Oh, I saw them alongside the road one day and we waved, or right, he used to come in the gas station, you know, like so this is a phenomenon when somebody dies in a kind of tragic way, that people had a closer relationship with them. Whether we're telling a story because it makes fair perspective on the story more important, though, yeah, well, no, because everyone wants to be the story. Yeah, yeah, but just as we're talking about this, because this is our final episode on this case, I do feel a bit for a bit more for the investigators at the every time we talk about it because, like it's everything is so circumstantial and like you just can't there's no hard evidence to any of stuff, but there's so much weird stuff. But then why? Rest was saying that you feel like Brian actually walked into the lake, you know, and Oh, yeah, I know that. But just like sometimes I think like how do they not dive into this stuff? But it's like it's just all like here say, you know, like, and that doesn't even make it false. There's just there's no like. Well, but part of that's because, you know, the sheriff's office kind of basically took this as a stage crime scene and that Brian was running and you went to California. Why California? I don't know. That's all false. Obviously we find them in the lake, but you know what what happened. You know why did that? How did that come about and how didn't you process it appropriately? So stuff was missed. Okay, you're right. So let's talk about the staging and why they may have thought that. And also, Danny pointed out a couple episodes back, but I think about all the time when I look through the crime scene pictures. Not I will put this picture up to that. If there is staging, and I think that this could be staging done by Brian, but he's telling us something in the picture in the conference room where he has the fire department plans lay it out, and then there's a copy of the Medina Gazette and on the front page is about the nextest pipeline that's going through. The headline on that paper. Is Brian sending the message and is that one of the things that maybe led the investigators to think that it was staged? Other than that, though, I think that the I don't know why they would walk into that crime scene and really feel that it was stage. I guess they said, though, there was look like someone used water to make the blood spread out more. Yeah, that it didn't Quaggu late, that they feel like it was watered down, you know, PAS one trying to clean it like? I don't know. I guess maybe of you able to tell us some much trying, you know, when I look at the scene, that's personally what I think is I think someone was trying to clean this up, that it got farther than what they were planning to in that room and they knew they had to go and they were trying to come back and clean it up. Is what I thought. But we're going to put those pictures up also in a separate tap or whatever, because they are kind of some mees seeing some blood. But yeah, that is a good point. So could there what do we be the reasons for doing that? If you're trying to extend your blood with water to make it look like more blood, then you're not planning on being dead. You're planning on stage in crime scene and disappearing to somewhere right right, because if you're really going to kill yourself, it doesn't matter if you make it look like this guy's obviously dead just by looking at this, that you're really alive. That's the trick, not just being dead. Yeah, that is no trick to that I did die, but to another, another way to look at this and interpret this is that, like you said, that maybe there's a telling footprint from a murderer or a Saila and they pour the water on to try to clean that up, or or we don't know what was going on really in there and those hours. And that's what I was kind of saying again earlier, like if if the suicide thing was just lacking a motive, we would say, okay, it was a suicide, but it's the way it happened, the multiple locations, like they're multiple motives.

Really, it just doesn't make sense for a suicide. Are you know how we're talking about most different aspects of the brime Achin story that we cannot make sense. So in this episode we're going over all the stuff that we know and what we don't know. So there's a lot of stuff there. We can't explain one of them. You know, like we talked about what is he doing with this credit cards? Was He trying to make an alibi at a movie where he was obviously at the movies and then he went home and Victoria reported seeing him? So like these things don't add up. Another one that is going to really throw you through the loop is that I discovered by listening to something in the BCI file or there's a recorded phone call of Paul Hartman Calling Charlie the BCI M and he's alleging that Brian may have ties to the government secret agent stuff. I think he's alluding to the fact that he's doing some covert operations. Yeah, well the Hell Right, was gonna say. Well, listen to the clip and he just comes out and says that he thought he was doing covert operations for the government, essentially, and and a previous interview of Paul's. I think that lead are he said, he claims that Brian was found with a federal pay scale and his wallet. Yeah, so implying these doing some type of covert work for the government. And you know, it's so far out there that if it wasn't coming from the investigator, from the BCI report of a phone conversation between, you know, formal federal former federal investigator, Paul Hartman and the BCI agent, Charlie, I don't think we would even be talking about this because it's so like far out there and we're not saying that this is it or not, but it does if you construct to view things to the lens of covert operations, some that stuff does kind of make maybe explains the weird stuff. anyways, like we said, the movie theater, if he just had to have someone there as an Alby, if that's what it was, and him making him call his wife but having his phone, you know, missing or dead or whatever, if you believe that just what he did, there's so much some of examples of he's doing something strange but seems to have a method to the menace. It's like, what is he doing? Yeah, it so do you think that being a jewelry salesman or whatever is like a cover, I mean, or why? It does actually afford him an opportunity to travel quite a bit, right? Yeah, I mean, I would be lying if I said I knew the first thing about how that whole set up works. But you know, there are people out there. I mean that's the whole point of spies are a real thing, you know, and they their covers would be totally legit jobs and they're probably real jobs that they really have to do, and then you just line up the other stuff with it like but I don't know, it would also makes sense that your spy wouldn't be somebody that would recognize me as a spy, like. Well, yeah, that dude wears a touch seeded to work every day, so rice probably supert asient like it. Jake's a lot of Martini. Anyway, I guess we should just play the clip and let you guys, you know, hear what what Paul had to say about this. I'll find more and more stuff where it's clear to me that he was involved in some covert military intelligence stuff. I keep planning websites and groups and all that crap. Where he with? It's clear there's there's some connection there. Now whether that figures into this or not, I don't know. I doubt it. Wow. You know, one of the questions that we've been asking ourselves since day one, and even before we did the podcast, really as individuals asking ourselves, was who was Brian Markran? We didn't know him personally. What we've discovered about him was that he was a loving and carrying husband and father. He was a marine with some pretty advanced training. was somebody that was a volunteer football coach, he was a local elected official. It was in the jewelry trade as a profession and you know, now we're hearing that there may be some evidence that points to the fact that he may have been involved in espionage or some level of government secrecy. Another question that we've asked before is like, was he a whistleblower? Was He somebody that was trying to shed light on misappropriations of funds or some things that were going on in the county that we're not right was he's trying to bring that to light? And unfortunately it's hard for us to answer many of these questions. In fact, the deeper that you dig into this, it's like an onion. You Peel off one layer and there's another layer of mystery or there's another mode of for somebody wanting to get rid of Brian. It is a very unique and complicated thing. So what do we got next, Darren? And we've got this eyewitness which we're going to play, which talks about she she was an employee at the minute mart, which...

...is right outside of Chipwa Lake, and she kind of saw some things that were kind of funny and we originally thought that the video footage was lost or deleted or something kind of scandalous going on, but we ended up able to find it in the BECI report, but we didn't find the actual footage, though. We just have some stills and we're going to put those stills up also so you can see them. It will play a little bit of her testimony. You'll notice that when you look at the still that the SUV is clearly not Brian's SUV. It's a green suv. But what stands out and what's interesting about her take on this is the other car and how the other car kind of shows up. Actually, you know what the old people are reported. It really are her and her boyfriend, but still their testimonies worth listening to. And how they see this silver car hashback again a couple days later, pulled off the road by the inlet. Right. Yeah, let's play the clip. Hello, can you state where you were? You used to Workwa, was that on Lake Road in Chippewa? Yeah, okay, and you work the morning of December sixteen. Right, correct. Okay. Can you go through your account of when you got to work and what you saw? It was a little after for and I seen a black SUV sitting at the corner of the lot right by the ice machine, facing lake grow. I think nothing of it because our news delivery lady, see delivers papers and she drove a dark suv and I just figure she was like he's a waiting burnother sword open or whatever. So I going. We started setting up kick coffee rolling, Yada, Yada, Yada, and I was about eight forty five, right before nine, when about for five Sharris and detective coming the store and they asked me where the manager was so they could review video footage, and I showed them. They said he was in the office and then they came back out because he doesn't know how to do the camera footage or stuff like that, and they asked me to go in there and do it. I started reviewing the tapes and I see it is. I S we started reviewing from a three something in the morning maybe, just trying to see what cars were driving on the grown and we see that his a, the perky lit pointing towards they crown, which is suv that you saw at for in the morning and the one that you saw it for in the morning. When you got to work, it was already sitting there. So the same SUV. Now. Did you see it leave? Personally? You know, okay, on the camera footage because, I I said, I just started rolling with doing coffee and doing our paperwork and close them down the day before to so new one. Okay, so you didn't see it leave till you saw the camera footage with police officers. So so what happened? So they looked at the footage right right. We said, all of us that right there. Active was right next to me as I'm reviewing the footage and I see his car sitting there, I see us walking there before me and I see me walk in car still sitting there for twenty something maybe. We're there dash and another car pulled in next the hits a silver hatchback and it was there not even thirty seconds. It pulls back out and it heads towards chip while road, Down Lake Road, and then his car pulls out another maybe three thousand and forty seconds later, like the silver car was already out of view before his card pulled out and went in the same direction. What...

...do you think the police were like when they saw that? Where they where they confirming that that was friend's car? Automatically they just said do you have a disk? Can you burn this? And I started looking for disk in the office, but with US switching over, a lot of the stuff got thrown out, were taken back and we have any extra disc so I had called up sister stories and I end up signing a couple of discs I could get from surbridge and row three, the other gas station, and I told him, you know, I can go get these dish. They said okay. So I went and got them and on my way backs my managered called me and he's like, well, they got I guess, or something delivered. No Rush. Blah, blah, blah, I was like, well, I'm already on my way back, so I pulled back in. They're so in the office and I was like, well, I got to your disk, you know, something on a dummy mission pretty much, and they said we'll be contacting you. I said, well, what's going on, but what happened? I didn't know anything at this point. He's like, well, you'll hear about it on the news tonight and they last. Okay, now did you go? Were you able to go back and review the footage to see what what they were seeing? After they took automatically? I was like kicking myself, and they aren't record disk. So so you went. When you went back, was the footage still there, like could you? Was Gone. So then erased it at whenever you were out getting the disc, I'm assuming, because I didn't do anything to delete it. I was trying to like very arms to a fast drive for them, because that's what they had, and I said that the computer system wasn't compatible with the flash drive. I needed CDR or whatever. Okay, so they deleted it before. So you only got to see it one time. And now the gray car in what now? You you told me another conversation that we had that you saw that great car later? Right. Yeah, I seen great car, I say a week a little over a week. It was just didn't clake. When I did see the great card I was at my husband's Grandma's house. We were trying to bring model and clean up and we're out there way, let's try about twelve, twelve thirty and straight on West Hill road. So we take Chippawa road home because that's we lived on chip wha road on the other side of the lake. When we're coming up to the bridge and there's a silver car with the hatch open, hazard lights on and we just so past it. We see anybody and went home and that night, sitting there laying down like dawned on me. I've seen that Silver Car Ford. Yeah, it was a it was a gray silver hatchback one, roughly one week later at Chippewa road by the inlet bridge. Yeah, now you didn't see anybody around there though. Huh No, but the the hazards were on and no one looked like they were in the car. There was nobody in the car. Because I have that type of I'll stop and I'll ask if somebody's okay. If I'm not by myself. Yeah, and I ain't see anybody, so we just kept going. That goes late and I was cold. So so I know exactly where you're talking and you live there, you know, right around the corner from that. Just out of curiosity, you've been on that road probably thousands of times. Have you ever seen anybody stop at the inlet? That wasn't like fishing. So it's not a common spot to stop or pull over. Right. That's all, marshy. That's a flood area. I'm pretty sure it's flooded right around that time before that. Yeah, interesting, it was already like a Hazar is type, because that was like one of the crazy owners that we had. Now,...

...just out of curiosity, were you ever interviewed by other than your encounter at the gas station? We did you have any other encounters with any of the sheriff detectives? Now, were you ever interviewed by the BCAGE I agent, Charlie? So they ever followed up on it or anything like that? Yeah, that's what I thought. I talked to Paul, I mean, what's his name? Yeah, Paul Hartman. Yes, yeah, he he. I know he contacted you, but no one from doing this investigation really followed up with with what you saw, and what time did you contact the sheriff's apartment at all? After a dawned on you with the car, with what you saw, because it was kind of a weird feeling situation just from the days after everything happening. I don't know. I had said something I want to say to one of the shares one morning when we're chopping up, he's getting coffee, but I can't completely collaborate with that. So what do you mean, like like you just had a weird feeling that you couldn't talk to the sheriff's Department or what do you mean by that? I just felt like like when I questioned them about what was going on prior to that, they said everything is on their investigation. Nobody can talk anything. You know, like I come from a family. What I see, you know, I tell or a share or knowledge it or whatever, and just the whole I just felt like I could tell them that, but where's it going to go? Yeah, you kind of felt like they weren't looking for it. Huh Right, okay, every time I was trying to question them a what's going on, because they had fire department. Those stiver in presents for the kids for Christmas. You know, it's Christmas time, and are we allowed going out? What's going on? And it was just like everything will be under you know, we everything, we got everything under control. Everything's fine. Just don't worry about nothing. We got to under control. Basically, yeah, clearly they did right. They figured it out really well. We're actually finding that they do have something. They don't have a video, but they've got some stuff, something like everything that you've said. You're like if she likes spot on what? Yeah, yeah, you really is very good on with times, because they have some like snippet pictures from the video, which is awesome. I just heard this now. I literally walked up here. I walked up here at seven hundred and twenty seven and obviously called you, like what's in five minutes later, you know. So he was just showing me it right now. That you really for sure? You have a great night. Yeah, and we're going to go through this. Okay, you've got my number. Of anything comes up, just text your call. Okay. Who was us? Just when we thought our interview was over, our informants husband had some things that he wanted to add and again, we're not using any names here because they wish to remain anonymous. We have to respect that. Hey, how are you doing? All right, I remember seeing the car. Actually looked it up. It was summers, around December, eighteens, around thirty in the morning. Those during a lace store. The in you're talking about on Chipwall road. That's gray. There would be two days later day there. Okay, awesome remembering right now. I said, they're thinking hard as about it. Why did that car strike you? Is Weird. Sitting there with his hazards. Was In the vehicle? I nobody was near the open. It is weird. Yeah, that's something. I mean it to me. That was I mean absolutely well, there's no reason you'd be at the Inlet Bridge Meldon and there's nothing around. It's all marsh, you know. It's not like yet parked and walk to a buddy's house or yeah, and just left the hatch open. Yeah, so that would have been a, let's see, Friday night, Saturday. So that would have been a Sunday night. That makes sense. Yes, okay, okay, awesome. That helps about you know. You know. So we'll put...

...that in there too. You know that it was Sunday and yeah, I think this is all huge stuff. Like I said, we just got these images, so kind of cool that we've got. They're not videos, but you got those two people that were in there too, so we're curious if you guys have seen those. But yeah, if you think of anything else, let us know. So awesome. Thanks so much for doing this. Guy's really appreciate it. But are you guys? Thank you. How you guys have a good night. Thank you. All right. So, listening to her account, I want to talk first about the green suv that she's that she saw, but then we also able to confirm in the video. You know, I think it's interesting that the jogger claims that the SUV was not black. There's who was adamant about it being dark but not black. Yes, and she has such a clear memory of everything she saw. And then you've got this silver hatchback car which she sees on ship boar road. Now, if you're not from around here, Chippewa road is not a road with houses where they she's at it. It is a marshy land with the bridge that often floods when the snow melts, and it's not I mean there's no reason to be parked there unless you're fishing off the endlet or, I mean what else we mean, or dumping a body, in my opinion. But right, and anyone who's been to marshland, you know anywhere, because I was in Mertle beach recently. It's similar looking, like you can it's flat. You can see very far and very easily. You can see anyone out there fishing or do whatever they're doing. All right, but you're kind of like you to believe she saw it. Yeah, and that car is not going to be there because you're going to your buddy's house or something like that that late at you know, like there's no houses around. There's if you're not catching like shell fish or something, and it's freezing cold that weekend. And there it is, no one's around, the hatch is open. Why why was that there and why was a car similar to that? Maybe that car also there or in that area at the same time when all this was going on. Yeah, so you guys are going to see the pictures again. We can't find the video. I don't know if it actually exists or not, but there there must because BC I was able to pull these stills off of it. But we don't have it. You're going to see these two cars are obviously together, they're obviously meeting up. What are they doing? And could this car mash description that we got from the jogger. So it's a very interesting theory. That leads us more, it's, Daniel would say, into the weeds of conspiracy. So they have multiple actor is potentially involved and that puts you squarely back into definitely murder territory. Right, and I think we we all agree it's not a conser. I mean I guess we technically big conspiracy, but there's at least two people. We don't think one person killed him. That we never have right. I mean we have it. It would be too hard to even move the body or whatever. Just everything. Yeah, just everything about it. So going still talking about cars, let's move to Brian's carcass. Well, and brought up some very interesting stuff about Brian's car. Didn't. So there's a lot of interesting stuff about Brian's car and I don't even know where to begin. One of the things before I get into a Cohen said it's just when you look at the photos from inside the car is relatively little blood and look at the office and remember the official narrative. The timeline is that Brian goes to his office and begins to commit suicide by cutting himself all up and then gets in his car and leaps. There's some blood in the car. Again, these photos walls are be made available on our website, invisible ships podcastcom. But there is not the amount of blood that you would expect from what you see in the office. If Brian was murdered in the office, was his body possibly put in one of these other vehicles and dumped? Another thing about the car that's really odd, and this is kind of a lot of part that Cohen discovered with his strange way of thinking. He's very detailed. Magic Colin Eyes, very good. Very good is look at the pictures of license plates, guys, you'll notice that there are is a Russy screw in a newer looking screw on the front and a Russy screw in our newer looking screw on the back. License plates. That see, Zad hear me. So I want to play devil's advocate, because anybody could mix up the screws when they're put like so. You got new plates, you started putting them on, you know. I mean, why does it mean that most people, when they're changing plates, will do it one at a time. You could, or I mean you could do both if you bought a car and got to put both plates on. Yeah, some they usually have trus all. It makes more sense in the context of the other things. And Yeah, so this is what Cohen is thinking, is that somebody washed Brian Emerkret's car but they didn't want a license plate reader for to pick up that vehicle, so they...

...switched license plates with some unknown license plate from an unknown vehicle, maybe a greenness even possibly, we could have been anything. But yeah, there's some of these suspicious vehicles that are in the area. Could definitely have been one of the ones that they switched the license plates on and drove this cardia watched. And why do we think that car was washed? Well, it's very clean on the outside. There is a little bit of a blood smear and there is some glove prints and stuff on the outside. But we know later on, from talking to people in Chippewa and from listening some of the testimony, that that was a jog or a guy that walks his dog actually, that came by and was peering in the window. So we can we can definitely know where that smearing came from. The blood. We don't know. Anyway, step all over my point. The car was washed. That's evident. The tires, yes, so there is ice at the bottom of the vehicle and there are when they move the wheels and they put the car in the flat. But you will look at this picture which is up there and it's on our website, you can see just a for little about the width of your palm of your hand, Prince, of the tires had made. So the significant because that those tires were wet and the night that that car was parked there never got above five degrees. So we wouldn't expect there to be any free standing water. And the side walls of the tire are all very shiny black and clean and the back cells are covered and salved. We should probably do a video actually post us on Youtube, or we can show the photos and talk about it. Okay, and I also think what's interesting is the back of the car. So Brian did go get his car clean that night. So that's the tricky part. He did go to that rainforest car wash before the Township Party and he did get it washed. But you know, so I talked to Victoria about it. Like, Victoria, this car is really clean. Colin, thanks, this car was washed aft when all of this stuff was happening to try to get rid of some of the evidence. What's your take on it? And she and I said, you know, like one of the things that I think about is when you go through a car wash, they never gets the back clean. So is Brian a particular guy? Now we've heard from multiple sources and the new Victoria that Brian was not necessarily the neatest of gentlemen and he was not meticulous with his car. And I asked what she liked packed a towel and got in there wiped off the back. No, absolutely not. He would have net and she even kind of like made a noise like that's so ridiculous. You know what's so? It's interesting because the back of the car is so clean. If you go through a car wash, that rarely gets clean back there right and also to me looking at it, I'm not sure what the license plate but I everybody don't think the license plate part matters. They took their car looks like it was washed and like even the fact that the outsidees clean, but there's like a blood's little blood splat there and then clean and then dusty. They're like kind of reminds me off if you pulled into one of those car wash stalls and mill of night after you had killed somebody and we're rushing to get a clean and get it back, like I wouldn't expect the a plus service. Yeah, again, there's not that much blood on the inside of the car. There is a little bit of blood in the passenger seat, to which is kind of strange, right. I mean, we just we just don't know. And on the hand, I mean they made it look like he drove that car, but you know, I mean somebody else that you know was possibly let's say Brian was let's say Brian was being extorted at the office and someone was had a gun to him and they were, you know, stabbing him with a knife and then they made him go get in a different car and that person drove it or whatever. I mean, they would get blood on it. Did they try to make it? You know, we're going to, you know, stage it. I don't know. He could have been forcing him to drive his own car. Yeah, but the seat was pulled up so far. Remember the ranger mentioned that that's right, this says put up so far. It also looked like it would have to be like a really small person, man or a woman or something. Yeah, so that's another strange question is, is why stage his car with blood in it? Do you think it was stage and then while he's why lock it with the keys in it? That's I don't have been. I mean, what if the killer, well, obviously would want to dump his car and put it at the lake? Yeah, they've been wearing gloves and is it's Brian's blood on somebody else's clothing, gloves that's inside the car. That would make total sense to me. Maybe Brian ever got back into his car, like you said, and he was taking the other car and they just drove it to get out of there, sort of like, you know, like how in like the Guy Father, when he shoots the guy in the restaurant, he just drops the gun right there. They don't even try to hide it. It's right there, right they because then it's like all one scene. I don't know. No, I mean I think it's very plausible, but it would be interesting, is so, if the car was washed by the killers and they weren't interested about washing the inside what incriminating thing on the outside of the car? Could their rents? I mean it...

...could have been yeah, you can, mean you know, there could have been a scuffle around the car at some point. I have a hard time believing that this actually happened in the office personally, and so I think it happened where they were meeting up and it started going. Brian didn't know this was going to go this way and he got an emit point of being compromised. But did he fight for a little bit? I mean, not anything. It started, I mean I think it started probably in his car or someone else's car. So now we've come to a bridge where we need to talk about who. Let's see why, don't try to say is you come to a point where you're looking at a motive of murder and you need to find out who had the motive. And you could go down two different paths here. Was it a political motivated murder, financially something tied to something going on with the township, or was this something to do with back page? Because if it was, say, somebody from back page, from that escort service, they wanted money and maybe Brian figured out that they didn't know where he lived. So he didn't want to take them to his home, but he convinced them that he could give money at his office or there's a pettycash say for something like that. Took them to the office. Plus, he thought he had a plan out that Sanford was going to be high and they're waiting for him to get there. Remember, he told everybody his plan for that angry except for Sanford, potentially. But yeah, the angry residence interesting and he also asked for increased patrol around his house because of this quote angry resident. So I getting threatened, you know? So, Brian. So that's that's a possibility. You know, and at all honest possibility is it had to do something with back page and or it could be could go totally the other way and this could be something to do with politics. And again, Brian isn't sure who is Tarry to him or he doesn't feel safe enough telling any authorities who it is. So you makes up this angry resident to get increased police protection without outing the person that he's worried about. That was what I was thinking when you were talking about how the private investigator was a retired cough, like if you need legal help, but off the books. You go to Pi, like right, yeah, I mean you know so that. The hard part is is if you go down this road, and so you're talking about a lot of people covering up this story. That's all local and no one has talked for a decent amount of time. So the likelihood of this seems kind of low, doesn't conspiracies are notoriously hard to conceal when you have more than one person. Also, you know, if it's really that many people behind, we all agree. We all got to get him and get him out out of the picture. Just chipping in by a gun, like you wouldn't do a weird knife stage merce who is anything unless, like it's something happened with that. It went that kind of went sideways and somebody did it and the other people kind of came alongside in that person had enough pole. So like in all heat of the moment, kind of leverage or I think we're all on the page that this didn't start out as let's murder this guy. They're either going to Brian to get something out of him or get him to stop doing something and depending on which, you know Canada, you got from murder, whether it's political or it's something from back page or somebody with diamonds, or whoever the group or person's are. They went there to shake him down and timidate him, and things, the player got out of hand, because this is a bad plan. Yes, and it seems amateurish, which again, to in my mind, me and my imagination, is just not good enough. Like an amateur knife threatening kind of thing that ends with him dying. Doesn't sound like the political operatives coming down on you or like the next pipe blind goons like. No, it doesn't seem like a professional hit at all. No. So then we got these weird things going on, like Brian's credit card. What is going on with Brian's herd? To cut it out. It's got to be a scam that he like. Scam is maybe even a harsh term. It's got to be a way that he figured out that to do something. So what also is interesting is Brian macy's credit card. The Password was changed on twelve sixteen of Sixteen, the day that he went missing, which is weird. Well, let's review the credit card thing first. So what does Brian do when with these credit card? It's well, he's going to different stories in Ohio and a broad. I mean he's going all over the United States. He would he would buy like a lawn mower and have it shipped to like a strip club, and but he would take it back right away or locally. He even like walked into a target and bought a talk to that guy. He called and he said, I'm sorry. He said that he knew Brian was in trouble because of this, and so he told me the story that.

What do you do? He said that the Guy Remembers is clearly because he was watching football on the big TV's back in target where they keep the electronics and they keep the IPADS locked up because they're a high ticket and high theft item. So Brian acron comes up and buys one HIGHPAD and they're talking a little bit and he said that Brian made a comment about what was going on in the game and maybe like a slight rapport or whatever, he makes the sale and walks away. And so he's back over by the Electronics apartment and the manager comes up to him and asked them, but there's anything wrong with the purchase or whatever? He's like that it was fine and he said, well, that guys at the front of the store returnament. And so Brian did that, like he didn't even leave the store with item. They guy said that he must be like that was just the weirdest thing that just took out. When you return it at target, they give you a little target card always. I don't know. I've had it happened to me, though. I mean again and I don't know. How's he getting ahead? Here's something. Maybe he's not going to ahead. Maybe he's trying to find a way to pay somebody and make it pretty imtraceable. Where how is he pulling the money to pay him? So this is I just call out with this right now. But if, if he's going to Home Depot and return along, when I get a home depot gift card, like where's the money go? If it's all go back to the credit card, I got nothing because I still can't free that. But if he's getting gift cards, you get enough of them, you take them to that little machine at like Gin Eagle and put a man gives you money back with the service. And I'm not taking off if you're just trying to figure out a way to get someone money off the books, but there's got to be a better way to do that. I don't like saying that, like it might be a way to the launder money, which I could see that. But when we look at his financial statements that they got in the BCI, it's the thing that sticks out to me to say there's like a hundred and fifty fivezero five hundred dollars worth of purchases and then you look at the returns and he returned more items than he bought, but he's in the whole five hundred dollars. Did you see that? Because it doesn't make sense, like there's more returns than purchases and he's negative he's doing. There's got to be someone out of there in our audience. That what was he doing? So he buys the IPAD, returns it and he does this everywhere he goes and we know, like the Scot is something going on. He'd buy like a refrigerator in a washer and dry or something. They there's no way you're not going to puys a no legitimate reason to be buying that in Texas and then returning it the same day or the next day. It's got it. If it's not making him a profit, it's got to be about moving the money and, like I seriously, did a really you know, just super amateur like Google search. I just like credit card return scamps like and everything. The only way to make money off of it would be, you know, like to buy it and then return empty and like get the money back. Don't work with a song credit card. Like if I had your credit card and I'm not having to pay this stuff back, steal stuff or buy stuff with your credit card, return it, get myself a gift card. That way, if I get stopped by the cops or whatever, like it's just a legit gift card. It's not a credit card with your name on it, right, and I would make sense, but it's his damn credit card, it is. And the other part is is like, you know, some people think, well, he was getting the points, but you know the BC. I did follow up on that and they they said it's a twenty eight days cycle and he's returning this stuff same day, next day kind of stuff. And you can see them on the credit card report where he would buy and then it would be returned in that report. You just said with that check like pump up your credit score to keep paying on the creditor. That's a good point. I have no idea. I don't know. I think we should find wrap this up, because we'll just be speculating for yeah, but here's the craziest speculation that this is off top my head and you should totally ignore it because it's crazy. But that's the ever once in a while you get a rumor about Brian Macor and be involved in some spy stuff. Right, like, what is this? Is some kind of like handle or signal? Like would have some spy handlers, like will be watching for anomalous purchases or purchases of a bunch of things to get returned the same day and contact here. I mean like it would cool to spy. Novel it would be. And what if it was backpage? He was acts. That's how he met his handler, was through backpage or something. I mean, you know, I like black list. That's crazy, so crazy at all. That's actually a good point, you know. I mean what what? He traveled all the time. He was known to even be internationally traveling, and there was several times throughout that we found that Brian, you know, he claim be got on the wrong flight and he missed a trustee meeting. I got on the wrong fight in up in Los Angeles. Now we're dealing after two thousand and right one was the pauls. You know, you can't do that. He just doesn't happen, you know. So where was he? What was he doing? You know, there is different times where another guy called and he saw...

...him in Medina and he said he was out of town, or you know, vice versa. You know where. You know he he was misplacing himself. And why? What reason would he have to do that? When you can't figure out someone's motivations, it's always sex, druggs or money, and for him it may even sex and money. I mean it could have been. You know, was he was he doing something like that? You just don't know. But one. But it is kind of cool to entertain that whole. There's no other way that I can see this. Credit Card Hulsel is like going to the bank with ten dollars and then getting a thousand pennies and you're not ahead. Dude, you don't know. Yeah, I have a feeling we might all be missing a really obvious thing that someone got tell us about. I hope so. So the question is, so the investigation and with the sheriff's Office, where we're going out just well, I have, like you know, like they didn't access to his records of his work. All right, well, in excess the cameras, and there's so many questions that we could talk about our R in the share. There's so many things about this investigation whether that are weird. Are you recording our yeah, okay, everything from what you said. They failed to do simple stuff. Fall up on simple stuff, the towel with blood on it in the dumpster, the knives at the crime scene that they threw away, like so many things about the investigation that don't sit right. And and that's what's weird. We're not saying a conspiracy is could be just as well that they were in that right Oh early, like like daring was saying. What about just like okay. So, so charlie goes to the sheriff's Office to pick up there was two boxes of evidence that he picked up of the the paper trail and every you know, all that stuff. Okay, picks that up on six twenty of eighteen, on nine five of the eighteen. He found out that the sheriff's Office never turned in the actual physical evidence of the phone and the laptop. You know, like why was it share of what wouldn't you think that'd be like to do them like? You'd obviously want to include that stuff. So then he says well, so the sheriff's office comes back and says, okay, will tell you what, since we forgot that, will ship it up to the BCI and rich field. Now it's interesting with the BCI and rich field. Right, where do we talk about this? Already were early on right that you know, there was a question because someone else worked at the sheriff's office up in Richfield. The conflict of interest, you know, the conflict of interest with that's where the evidence sat for a while and Sneider even went in access to it and left it in locker forty at the Richfield BCI office. Now it shouldn't be a conflict interest for one law enforcement agency to have someone from another that migrated over there was working at unless the other law enforce agency is actually like an investigating the original agency. Do you know? I'm saying like I don't think that's that unusual. I really don't totally agree. But then why? I don't think we're stomps an interest. Why did Forres Thompson get it? Why did his red flag go up and he said I don't want it at Richfield and then they transferred at the new London. member. I think that he knew that they did. Either were doing such a bad job or he suspected that there are somebody that I wanted to cover something up. One of the two. I think he knew he had a live one and didn't want any anything to be able to be picked on, you know, picked apart afterward. It's just not normal. Like is is not normal that if somebody was Cleveland Police officer and then they left him went to the FBI, that Cleveland PD couldn't talk to him as an FBI contact. True, it's not a conflict, and I mean they even sent also was being the same. They Listen SA team. They exact's a kilo accounty for the autopsy. But I just think there's probably a little bit more to the story than we know. They're probably real good friends or something. But also I think I think he was just trying to keep it above reproach. Then reproaches all that they get from those cares because it's either handle so badly that people like filling itself feeling more on their conspiracy theory. Yeah, granted, it's a very confusing murder. I mean that's one for the record. It's one for the books for sure, whether and even if it was a suicidally's like the most damn confusing suicide to investigate. So I feel for the investigators to there's so many that you can't look at an investigation, you can't watch a date line and say why didn't they do this? Everything that that. You know, any scene you have there's always two thousand and twenty hindsight, you know. But you know that just questions. When it's appropriate for the final episode of this season to bring up all the questions that were raised, even if maybe our thoughts have changed a bit. I mean I think there are so many things that were poorly handled. I don't I...

...get that you can walk in there and say, okay, a person didn't die in the LAFFITTE township office. I can I can see that. But why do you all of a sudden jump to he staged himself? You know, how do you get there? To there? When you collected you didn't have all the evidence back, but even then when you did, you had DNA that you never found a match for. You know, I don't know why. I just kind of made me think about that. But I feel like if you if you took that whole situation and just, instead of being this partly obvious, but instead of it being a trustee and a government building, it was a sales guy and the conference room of his sales meeting, they would handle it completely differently. Because, you know, you know, we love our our police everything, but they sure love to arrest people and make it. You know, they always go for the crime. They don't go for the Oh well, let's let's way around and make sure what this blood's really all about. Yeah, let's quibble about this. Yea, yeah, the guy with the money bags. I don't you like to be jogging? Yeah, you know, but what about? You know, then they clean the office so soon after everything happened. They just they don't they get rid of the crime scene. You know what's up with that? They just wanted the trouble out of their own house, and they may have, but it's not doing anything to help the conspiracy go away. You know I mean? And what I think we're doing with is a very, very, very rare, like once in a hundred years or once in a lifetime kind of crime. That took place where there's not just one clear motive. This guy has a bunch of different motives. He's not a truth teller, at least we know. In some ways he may have been deceptive about the angry caller. There's enough going on in his own personal like that is raising a couple flags. And there's enough going on with the other people that you're looking at that they're doing some I'm not saying it's illegal, it's just like they're involved in lots of stuff too that could look like, I'm motive, all kinds of moving parts. It's so hard to pin it down. Yeah, and like it might just be better for everyone. They're thinking of a just called a suicide, close it and go home, which Ye, have violent crime and chip I like it's also going to say, just like if you look it up, they're vot kin crime rates like nine percent. That average is like twenty two percent, like. So it really was like a once in a lifetime thing. Yeah, I definitely agree. And again we and where we began, with a guy in a leg that's been stay up six times with no water in his lungs. Right. And the question, though, I still have here is who would dispose of a body in Chippewa Lake? Would it be somebody local? Orld it be somebody that's not local, and I kind of think that a if he if we're going to the back page theory. Are they local? Are they in Medina or they set? Are they more like towards Acharn work at ARDSTER CLEVELAND? Right, you know, I mean they did search and they did interview one potential prostitute who never knew Brian. And the other thing that's interesting is there's people in the file that we have no idea how they got these people to be run, but they're. They're people with pretty bad rap sheets. So why, where's that link at? And how did you vet that person with no audio interview, just one paper put in there. You know what? Other one I was actually a pimp that saved hooker with a knife, by stabbing somebody. Yeah, yeah, there's one with yeah, that there's a hotel and there's another gentleman who we don't even we don't even know the tie to it. Well, because that's a good point, as a point that Paul's made. Knife crimes are so rare. Like the police were just searching for people with knife crimes on their the record, and that's so. I mean any but it's not that he they like the like slid his throat and killed them. You know. It's more like wounds that you could serve life from, and they kind of think in a lot of people, even Paul, thinks he probably died of hypothermia. And even in the yeah, the autopsy, it talks about how he had his hands pulled up under his sleeves, almost like a little kid being cold in a way, which I don't know where you go with that. Is that because someone was grabbing his shirt and and dragging him and that's why the sleeves went up there? Yeah, or was he could like, you know, tranquilized in the back of a car, you know, or because in the Vista report there's one point where they they say, is he died of exposure or something along those lines are underlying, because it once again that there was no official cause. If there's some causesion doesn't determine,...

...but that doesn't mean it couldn't be, you know, essentially murder neglige on homicide if you get beaten up and left in the woods but there's no big wounds of being other than the stab wounds, you know, like there is no known big bruising or anything like that. True, you always like consider being staut beating out. It is, yeah, that it's it's pretty brutal, but you know, so I almost think that Brian was sedated to some point. I really, I really struggle with when in it being a toxicity report. Well, but that long away and there's any different things you can put in someone's body? Yeah, and they weren't sure. Like you know, we heard that there are some feather mean in the system, but then they kind of went back and said that that could be a byproduct to decomposition. So even you know that the doctors and the scientists involved, like you're moving into a gray area with some of the stuff because it's all speculation. We just we don't know that. That's why we're work putting it all out to you. Guys. Have where our minds have gone through this whole process kind of learning in real life. It's not like Cusi. There's not this one panel that they run that tells you everything. I made and I just do want to point out, for Sega, argument with the you said he wasn't beat up and have a lot of bruises. I've never seen the autopsy photos. We've never seen you already photos available there are not available. So, yeah, who knows? So the question I got to you guys is going through this whole case and how exciting it's been to see it move while we're doing this podcast. I'm personally biased thinking that we pushed it forward, but when we got it to the people, which is cool, we've got, you know, really we got some people that are working with Victoria that that weren't before and people know Victoria Story. Would you really cool. But how did you feel late at night different points during this? You know, I never want to do another case that is in my own backyard like this was. Yeah, there's so close and so personal in our living in Los Angeles. I felt bad for your guys. I felt like you might be nervous, but yeah, that far wasn't fine, though, and it's just kind of weird that you're talking about something that Epidere on town and some of the people that you know but you meet every day are some of the people that are connected somehow to Brian or to the other people that are involved in the case. So it's a weird thing. Yeah, it's crazy. You know. I had one time where, you know, my dog started growling and and it was late at night and he was down there, and so, I mean I'm coming down with the gun and I'm checking all the rooms because that's a guy somebody. We said too much, you know. But it's been a really cool ride with this case and I mean I'm excited for the next case. I'm excited to, you know, really try to open that one up and give information that wasn't given before. But and I'm excited for the next episode of Brian macern, which is not coming in the near future, but it is coming whenever this evidence, further stuff goes, because there's so many questions that can be answered in this case and I do think it's going to be solved. Paul is not given up. We got calling on board. We're obviously still staying in touching. If there's enough information to bring into an episode, I'm sure will. Yeah, we definitely do it, you know. So if there's anything that you guys have for us, you know, please get a hold of us. You know, you guys know how to do that. That was, you know, what I wanted to say it to you that that was the best thing about doing the podcast and what made it worth it, all of the work and all everything, is that I learned that there's so many smart, caring people that live in this community that I didn't know before, but they kind of came out of the wood work talking to us on facebook and instagram and offering this. They're great insights and that led us to a lot of the interviews that we did and just I'm just kind of amazed at how there's so many people out there that they've always questioned this and I don't think they had a form, you know, to really speak, but we gave them that platform and they blew us away and I think, you know, we've it's given us a roadmap for how we're going to hopefully have the same effect on other cold cases, starting in Ohio, and we'll see where it takes us. And you know, I know we summer episodes have been a little bit rough and I don't read the reviews, but I've heard a little bit about some of the reviews and we're learning as we're going. But in our next season we're going to talk about this, the circleville mystery and its circleville letters circleville letters. But we're going to be doing it. We're going to be talking to actual people involved. are going to begin an interviews, we're going to be going on location. We're not going to just be retail on the story like it's been retold a hundred times. We're going to be getting out there, hopefully kicking out another Hornets nest and spooking out there. And Yeah, and I hope...

...that, you know, all of our people out there that have been listening that I've been doing their own research and getting in touch with us, will do the same for the next case, because you guys are awesome. The stuff that you found is awesome. We need you and we hope that you'll help us on this next one. Invisible ships is not going totally radio silent. Yeah, we're going to be getting an interviewed on a podcast called El Blanco he gonte pot. Will put a link on our website. Yeah, it's it sounds pretty cool. There's a newer podcast and somebody else that it's been interested in the Brian American case, so we're going to come on and hang out with him for a little bit and talk about our experience on that, which you guys already know most about but I think you should check it out. Yeah, for sure, and you know bright the Brian mackron cases, I think has some pright future ahead of it. So we are excited to see what comes up here and then your future. I wanted to say it I did get a chance to say earlier, is that when we do solve this thing or when it gets solved, you know the killers wanted Brian mackrin's body to be found at chip while, like when you were asking about like with somebody from in town or out of town, use that. I don't know they answer that, but I do know they wanted him to be found there, which is kind of interesting, right. They put his car there. They definitely wanted his body to be down there. I think they just dumped it. They just dumped everything well and that. So do you think Brian was in the lake that night? I don't think so. I'm leaning towards I keep coming back to simplest everything. I don't think they meant to kill him by also don't think they cared, like they cut him up and lisle him go and I think he was days and everything. I think he collapsed right around where the jugger. I don't think she saw him, but right around where she saw all the activity, because cheap mercy even said, and it had flooded a bit, so he would keep be caught there and then, when it melts, be dragged out. So you don't think off the chip wall road. You know the jogre fee better than me. I think he was somewhere stuck in the reeds. Yeah, to the hard part like that. I start with is swinehart says that he specifically looked underneath the Chippu wall bridge over the endlet. Yes, I know and I know he looked there that day and I don't. So I got to make an analogy, and I all due respect to Brian, I know he's not like a missing pair of eye glasses, but how many times if you like just lost a thing and you cannot find it and like you drop it and you watch it, it disappears and you can't find it and then like two months later come back it's like oh it is right where I was standing. There's a goose, a filter moted dimension, and maybe you're Bryan did too. I'm just saying, who knows, especially if he was buried. I mean it's it's all muddy and like, but it was frozen and cold that night, though. You know. I mean, he wasn't do there is no dig in that night. I don't think you know. Yeah, I guess I just I don't know. But the my only sticking point against him not being the lake is that means it wasn't involved like straight up murder. Where we're going to take him, put him somewhere, hide them, wait till the heat dies down, put them back and a lot of the other stuff just doesn't really seem that organized, especially if you're leaning towards the you know, the escort can kind of murder theory. They're not based out chippa like they were there. They kill him, there's all here's a or whatever happens and then just let's get the heck out of here. Yeah, which would make sense towards towards that idea. The hard part is is like so my theory is, I don't know. I don't know which way it goes as far as WHO's involved with it. But, you know, I have a hard time thing. I think they were doing something towards some sort of an interrogation or extortion or something where they up the game and they started stabbing him with a knife. In the conference room. There's that car that pulls in, potentially involved or maybe not, but the car does leave shortly after that. Now was that something you know? was that somebody tied to it? Or did they get nervous like we got to get out of here and then they started rushing through? That took come somewhere else. You know, was he partially drugged at that point? You know, the toxicology even in the VAC airport, talks about it being limited in the ability to tell what was all in his system. So I mean, he very well could have been sedated. Interesting. I think that we're going to have to leave it there for now. There is so many questions and things that were waiting on in the Brian American case. But you know, at the end of the day we're just podcasters and so we are very limited on to what we can do and almost everything that happened happened through Victoria, because of her, because of her persistence and because of Paul Hartman's excellent detective work, and then because of our list nerves and the people that were helping the family and helping us to uncover stuff that we could send to them. We have. You know, this has been such an awesome collaborative effort from the very beginning that we were just so impressed with how awesome the people of Medina and even people outside of...

Medina, how many people cared about this case and try it to do anything that they could in their power to help. You know, we're still waiting on the hearing from back from facebook about what happened with the Facebook Messenger and if that message could ever be uncovered. I hopefully it will and we can bring that to you. So again, we're not really going anywhere. We just we have to be done with the Brian Achran case for now because there's nothing new happening to tell you about. I was going to say, you know, this is the end of the murder lake series right. I just want to kind of gage from you, like how do you feel about that? This this was supposed to be like one or two episodes and it turned into, you know, something huge and the work is not done. Obviously Victoria is not giving up. You know, the crimestoppers reward is still out there. We don't think it's over. We think we'll be hearing more soon, but for us. You know, we're going to continue on our our mission is to explore these cold cases here. But when you said how do I feel about it, I was just, you know, I was thinking how, when we first got into this, we had no idea the reaction that we were going to get from the public, how much cooperation we were going to get, how many leads, and for a while there I started thinking like are we gonna help solve this thing like before our very eyes? I mean like it went from I think that we were going to air some of Victoria makrons interview, give her a chance to speak, and then people just started coming out of the woodwork and we were able to independently verify stuff that Victoria told us about and all of a sudden, like we really got you, this thing start as a roll and take on a whole life of its own right. I mean there were definitely moments there where we we honestly felt we were going to be hearing an indictment soon and that enough kind of stones have been overturned. Unfortunately, as you know, that didn't happen, but we kind of just were in the right place at the right time for a lot of it. But what really encourages me is, and we've mentioned it before, like the the engagement that we get from the people that listen and like talk about online, and you know, I was always one of those people. I like read it, like I looked at the Brian Macron case on right at the first time around, like you get into it, and hopefully we can take this with us on our next one and it's going to be called CIRCLEVILLE and we're looking into the Circle Ville ors case and you know it's which it's a fascinating case. I mean it's pretty much like real life pretty little liars with some booby traps and it's crazy. It really happened. You're not going to believe it's true. I don't want to tell you too much more about it, like let this get to work on it and want to bring into you and I think that you're going to be excited to hear it. Before we close this thing out, this chapter out. I wanted to thank the macron family, Victoria Paul Hartman. Special thanks also to a lot of the people that are on our facebook that are always giving us great advice. Some of the you guys are coming to mind. I don't have permission to send your names on the air, but you know who you are. All of our top fans on facebook, like the guy, people we talked to every day. You're awesome. I also want to thank Cohen and Scott for helping us with the video right and Mo Week. We can't thank everybody because we leave people out, but the facebook community, web sleuths, the people that go to invisible, just podcastcom the people that talk to us, rick reads your reviews. So these mean as you want and then we really appreciate that and that's what I hope we can take with us to the next one, because, you know, we're just guys talking, but like what we're going to do, and we're going to do this in the next one. It's talked to people that are actually involved in the case do the leg work. There's some great podcasts. There's some great podcasts out there on our next one, but they're all made, you know, in California and stuff like that. We're actually going to go to Ohio, so you know we live on we're gonna go there, we're going to go start so and we need, we really do want you to come with us, so stay tuned. Oh and everybody a very merry Christmas. Yes, happy holidays, happy New Year every hotaka.

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