Invisible Ships podcast
Invisible Ships podcast

Episode 7 · 1 year ago

Murder Lake Episode 2: Victoria Macron Interview

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

We talk to Victoria Macron and a retired federal investigator about the day Victoria's husband Bryon Macron disappeared.  

We are back with another episode of theinvisible ships podkest and today show is one that people have been waitingfor for a very long time we're staying with the Brimecron story, but this is abig one. This episode is huge because we have not one but two extremelyimportant guests join us on the show. One will be a highly decorated, retiredfederal, a enforcement officer who spent the last several yearsinvestigating the murder of Lavya Township Truste, Brin mackrit. There'sno question: It will be thought on at all, he's been doing a lot of digginghe's Rougflin a lot of feathers along the way, but that's how you get stuffdone. His name is inspector Paul Hartman. We also have- and I think,she's the one that you guys really want to hear from today- a very brave woman,Victoria Makron, who has been waiting this at tin, one woman campaign to findout the truth of what really happened to Wer Hos Yiai. Don't trust anythingof what's been going on after Bryant's body was discovered inChibuale. He dark clouds seemed to settle over Madona County, but those ofus who lived here there was a strange feeling around the entire incident.When the answer question seemed to mile up like snow, a bunch of Wal leg today is a day that we're going to begetting the answers to some of those questions, because we're about to playfor Y, the first part of the Victoria American interview and we're going togain so much insight from her story, and it's it's amazing how brave she wasand how much access she gave us and how much information she gave us and beforewe go on and play the newview. I do want to tell you guys why this is soimportant, and this is so important, because this case is still insolved,the the more audience that we give her the more we share this interview, thebigger the platform that we build for MSS Macke and her family, and that'sgoing to do one or two things: one. It's going to force the hand of thelocal politicians and law enforcement to revisit this case to to go over witha fine tooth comb to look at everything. It's also going to jog the memory ofpeople like n. We are literally getting contacted from people all over theplace. People are coming out of the woodwork they're, remembering thingsthey thought were totally incont Iwasal at the time. I was just going tomention that one another reason why we are actively trying to get this storyout there to as many people as possible is we're getting tips now and one isgoing to actually show up in a upcoming episode. We have an interview withsomeone that you're going to hear mentioned in is interview today andwe're not going to give it away yet, but it could change the case. I meanhis could blow the doors off if om stuff. So that's, why, like I said it'simportant, we are not trying to be self serving Buke. We don't really careabout the pogast beyond the fact that we just enjoy making them. It's t ehobby forces honl. We do on the side, but we're asking you guys- and we neverdo this to please share this- subscribe- give us five stars on Itunes, becausethat's going to tell the algorithms over there to recommend it and, like Isaid, we just want as many people as possible to hear this because we'rehoping to bring in national attention to this cell, and you know, speaking ofAlgorithms, they always tell you on Pod Gess. Oh, please leave a comment.'CAUSE Thett shows that people like us or whatever, and we would like that,but also, if you have a tip, leave a comment on itunes. After you rate US'cause that I seeper helpful and like Ricq UASTSAYING, like invisible shitsat this point, it's just three guys that have an interest in in this we're,not experts, we're not pretending to be investigators, we're just talking topeople, but along those lines. You know the three of us have different ideas oncertain aspects of the case. We don't know what happened. That's the point ofall this, but when you hear in the interview is the subjects of theinterview is opinions. Those are not necessarily our opinions, we're notmaking any allegations and in the United States, you're innocent untilproven guilty. So we are going to share all the information that we have. Thisis going to be an unedited interview, yeah, and that was a big decision thatwe decided to go. So when you hear the interview honestly, some of the audioquality isn't invisible ship standards.

What we did is the three way phone callyeah. So as a like, a conference call between our invisible shipmake Darin,former federal investigator Paul Hartman and Brian's widow Victoriamackren, you going to have to forgive some of the quality. There's somebackground noise. I couldn't clean it up. I did T, and I made the choice-that the interview was too important. The insight and the information thatYoull gain from listening to it is too important. Tha. I don't want to destroyY N, we're just trying to give you the facts. You make up your own mind and Iwant to make a point of a reason that we're doing this is one of theaccusations that you will hear here. Um will be maybe not refuted but kind ofargued in a different way in an upcoming episode. So in any kind ofscenario like this, especially four years later, there's going to belots of different things going around and that's why me personally, even if you might hearit some disparagement of local law enforcement authorities, you know it'shard until you're in their shoes to know what they're doing with so we'rejust let ou KINDOF. Let everybody hear this and you know we would be more thanwilling to hear from the Sheri's department. I know we've reached out toMr Sandford. Who's retired toll hear about him, so we we definitely don'twant to run anybody off the road or railroadevanybody we're talking andwe're reathing. Now to just about everyone that comes up so, hopefully wewill be getting hearing back from some of these people, but I guess it'sprobably time just to roll of the interview. The interview is Olte wroughfor the first half hour, and then it gets a lot better. We just have someinterference really on so hang in there. It gets better as Marijuan got me. Igot you now. Let me just do the my magic and bring in Victoria here allright. Victori are you here? Yes, I'm here taryou there, I'm here Alligh, so I guess I have successfully dupton one of theseirinsine things and connected three of US cool. So it's happening here now.This is this: Is Victoria Makron on the line? Just so you know how are you heI'm good Victoria? How are you thank Yo, good, all right, so we'reputting together a podcast and I've had an interest in your husband'sdisappearance and murder and we're looking to you know wherwhere'sawareness about it. So I really appreciate Youud put ininside time hereto talk to us today. Oh my God, you don't know, I'm so glad, I'm sograteful. Thank you, I'm so sorry for everything that you've been through. Icanhave ININ A metail I've. I've got some questions for Yau Um, so so t's tof that we don't know Um.Can you describe like the night that so obviously he went out? You know Brianwent out to a get together over at h. The winkingLizard. Is that right, correct and that was in Bronswick, and it was far a gettogether for Christmas for township officials and whoever worked in Lafette O. There were some other like the localprosecutor and the county commissioners were invited as well Oky. What? What time do you rememberlike roughly like what time that party was going fromWindowin? I don't. I I'm trying to think Um I had to. I was going to attend withmy husband, but my youngest daughter had had a roken footand the boot was coming off and she had to go to a physical therapy, her firstappointment that night, okay, that was, I had to go to that meeting an triveoclock. I believe the Christmas one started, maybe around six, okay and andthen he from there went and Fawl a movie right afterwards right Cracpe,they went to see star wars Um. I was...

...part of that and I hadn't heard fromhim till one of township, the other township trustee had messaged me and th wasoothatmessage because it never came through as a text message. It came Togh HisMessenger and I didn't see it till the next morning, because I was asking thatI was asking Brian. What time are you guys going up w? Whenare you eating and that's when I didn't see the message Tithat morning, so I was at home, okay, so then he went and saw the movie withCostello. He yeah he apparently went with Castello okay. Did he go with anybody else, Nodon't know of anyone else. Can I correct you there just for amoment yeah. There was some preliminary indicationthat bowers was there as well yeah. I found that out later because a friendof our from high school, his sister, saw that Linda bours had postedsomething on face, Balk about the movie nenonce to Mei, didn't know. If she, Ican't sae for sure if she was there, but there was reference to it through afacedbook message that he had commented on okay m. So what what was Brian'srelationship to the best of your knowledge with Costello and bowers likedid he? How did he like working with them? It was, I mean it was friendly Umbecause they had to work together, but there were. There were situations thatm. You know. Brian Brian spoke, the Trutcriing was about Noble Shid, you know he's here, Toserv the residence andlet's have an open line. Acen e Shell- and there were numerous ties where maybe at a trusty meeting Linda, was offended t what he would say. I can'tbelieve you just set that on the record. He knows why, like so what? Let's speakthe truth here Um, so there were times when they wouldhave to vote on something and he would come home from a trusty meeting and say:Oh, I see how the meeting go. He goes good but Lyndis mad at me again, and Isaid why would she be mad at you and he said? Well, she didn't like the way Ivoted. Okay, yeah, she seems like an outspoken trustee.Does that sound Kindo like yes, MHM, okay, Ye, Brian Brian, wasn't a puppetyeahyeah? He didn't want to del it. Everybody else wanted to do he waned todo what was right to do? What was right, he said.Ysometimes too, you know you have a resident that would be upset, theymight come into the meeting Um and he's like you know, maybe I didn'tsee laby. I had my view of what they weretrying to address at the eating and he said after listening to the resident, Icould see their sight of it, but by giving them the chance to listen, itmay have changed his mind. Like Hey, you know what you got avail apoint here,let's see how we can wok this out, so we always gave he resident the benefitlike. Let me hear you out you, your Scnerio, give me a reason what you knowUm and then Castello he he would come to Brian a lot and sayyou know o Ha Owai 'cause. He was also a Finier yeah. I saw that yeah he's afirefighter for o the township...

...and he works as a reelator for lynd ofhours as well under her proedge reality. Okay, so would you say Costello andbowers were kind of a lot more together and brain with one othe oneout as far as like Odmad out a lot of timeswhen it came to different thing, a and only because Brian was firm on somebeliefs. That m you know that they were, and Brian wasn't goingto be a puppet, and I know I mean he had said before- that yeah definitelyMi Castello Isinust topit she likes Mike because he does what Linda wantsnoael outside of the truste relationship. How did like m? How didyour husband and Castello get along w? Were they crings? Did they doanything Lik to go to a movie? was that like an unusual thing or yes, yes, yeah? I thought that was weird, that Iwas going to go with them and I never heard from them or here Bryant, thathis phone had died at the movie and Castello Waspo Texme, and, let me know,while he sent a message through Mathmanmiron basebalt and at the time I couldn't get messenger, wouldn't come up as amessage on my phone. It would only. I could only see if you go into facebogGoo wag in the facebook. I would ave never got an alert. I hadno idea and I hadtet crying a couple times saying: Hey you know, am I goingto come up thor what's going on and never heard anything, I had asked himto stop on the way home if he could get money out of the ban, because mydaughter was going to go to breakfast before finals that morning to bring acouple bucks home for her s to go in the morning. Okay, so, but Um work. No, we we, he didn't do anything.There was one instance after a commissioners meeting that we attendedand we all went up, Um and just hung out after it one of thelocal eateries og and got something to eat after, but that was really the onlytime to did. He hang out with him. No O. It was not something common, IC, Cani,just step in here her a moment, and that is the the SACEBOOK MESSENGERapplication. It is going to be Real, interesting and you'll see a connectionas this goes down the road, but take note of that yeah I read the PA. I knowyou hoot that on the blague okay, so you understand it. Yes, I understandthat part Um and h yeah, I'm with you on that M good. I'm sorry, I didn't mean tointerrupt UN victor. Oh No! You you're aneto M, so, okay, so he he comes homeand you're. Probably thinking like where were Yo, you know. Oh, I didn'tneed to re home. You know they were Gonta. Well, not tay!'CAUSE! I didn't know he was going with anybody, but I knew he was going to themovie Mhm and he did he got home. I said, oh, howwas Amoa, so why didn't you message me gas? My phone Di didn't Mike Message.You and I said no Welli didn't know because, like I said,Messengeryeahdidn't get it. I'm trying to think Messenger. Now, there's an at for the phone no dife than now. To tell me like I gotthem. I was Ol on. I never went into message to look to see. Ruh Umand, thenhe pucked his phonand when he got home...

...and it was uround Christmas. We had toElphin the shelf he's like. Oh did you put the OP on the shelf out and I saidno not yet, and then he went over to the sink and he's like hey, there'skick and tenders in the St they were defrosting. They said I took those out,he goes well, don't you want to make those 'cause? He knows. I always makemy kids, these chicken raps for their lunches and he's like. Don't you wantto cook these? I said Yeah. Actually I will put 'em in so I put Hem in theoven. I don't know they cook, for maybe twenty minutes half hour and that time we did the Elfinshel that forour youngest and we went to bed oker now was it and then so the the store that I'm toldas around two AWAT. He got a message on his phone creck. Yes, and I remember he had the Sam Song Edge Son,it was a newer phone in it like has where it extends the glass down intothe side s. You can see like if it's laying on a flat surface, you can seelike a message come through. I remember seeing a Lioon, I don't know if there was necessarily a message whatbut I now looking back Paul said at Twoo Eigt. So we went to bed, it was prie shortly after one and Iremember seeing a light, so it like lit up the side of teromwhere he lays on that side of the bed mh and it lit up, and I remember seeing him get off. I remember seeing him standingthere, but then from that I don't know because I just figured Oh, is he goingthe bathroom captain sentner made a sleetment during the UM captain senter made a statement duringthe icontreobecause Anfrendor, something that Yvitoria knew where hewas going? I said I didn't know where I did. I didn't know he was goinganywhere yt him get up. It was at the side of the bed and I think at thattime I was like I dfom. I never saw me the room, I am Sawan. I just saw himget up. That was it OK, so he said O ya. I he never talked to me so how cal hemake that statement. That's that's a very good question. You know I can let me just step in here for amoment. If I can again Victoria, please forgive me for adding side notes here. Yet theyare quote a quite PRESSDconference. If you see that and ou you can find that on you toob actuallyouand Um according to Setner, who, quite frankly,doesta nose, askrim a hole in the ground. U Never Talk to me about anything andthen he's going to make a stepness. Thati Bryin got up and I knew where hewas going. I didn't know wherere He'as going. I didn't even talk to him.Saidthe Ady, fil, Hunee, Hin, get up e Boe saw looking back was, was he goingthe bathroom? I don't know I conut it's like you ace, conscious, like you kindof wake up, you see it and you cust go back to sleep. I didn't think I'. Evenof it he got up and went to the bathroom frequently yeah. No, I thinkthat's you know, like I sai. I mean with M my wife, you know. If I get up,you know she doesn't know where I'm going to go, I could have gone and leftand she wouldn't have known. You know. I can't understand what you're saying like we always Lok with a downcomforterhunter bed and he was morethewarm bloode yeah...

...t overheated, so in his mthe heater othe vent was on his hide the bed, so we'd always get the heat right away,but Um sometimes he would even go down and like lay on the couch in thebasement like to cool off or if he knew he had to travel in the morning, ttouch an early flight he's like I was asleep in the basement S. I don't wakeall of you guys up trying to get out whatever in the morning so m. sometimeshe would do that. No, I didn't like I said I didn't think anything of it. Itwasn't unusual, you don't think you're going to wake up in the morning andyour husband's missing. I know no IA, no so you're GOIN HA in o point you if Ican, and that is that at the cotical press conference, Um sent a claim thatBrian left home at one thirty in the morning, which is clearly deceated bythe fact that Braan was home in bed at one thirty and actually ae see thatthat message actualae the morning which ultimately tigger him to leave thehouse- that's theyeah yeah. So so you wake up. Um realize that Brian's notthere and he was supposed to be there in the morning. I think it right realize he wasn't here I mean I know hewasn't next to me an bed but ijust got up like any other day and I got readyfor work. I was good ready for work and UM. I get to work and my daughter calls me and she's like'cause. I knew what he had to go to a meeting. He said I have to go to a meeting inthe morning, so he asked Alex our oldest to take Nia, our youngest toschool. I didn't, I thought, meeding. Okay,IT'S FOR JEWELRY CAUSE! That's the Business Ein and a lot of times he'd goout lass. I knew he was going to go to theguy in Worcester M Kat. What is it Yis? It CGRANDA? Yes, Cakaday YeahMegerd, so he had a stor. looster am good friends, good good client,ofbrian's Um, and he would go out there andparioccally like talk to the whole staff, and he said he was waiting on, bind aontalk to him and what I thought he said. I have a meeting and that's what I thought so I didn't thinkanything of it in the morning. You know when you get off your faingyou're okay.Well, I got to work in Alex called and she said mind. Do you know whereDad is? I said Ni. I said at a meeting and she's like Shd. I said she says: Well, they can't find him. Igo who what are you talking about? She said to Shareif ar here to they're ge're at your Hihe MoseurFetchyour House, yeah ogod. She said this hars for hethor looking for that. So we'll wait a minute. She goes or remember. I have totake me at of school, I said well last. I knew he had akneeting Mgeso that I'm like Alex go down thebasement. I siggled own the gate that look on the couch, no he's out there,she's walking around the house, not when she comes out. She sank. They'realready in our house inside, like in a kitchen, agree sther and they open the door and letthemselves in youthing Er someone Woinso E, O O. I believe they did OUTALEC had come seecome here. Like I don't know, I believe...

...she may have let them in the frontfoyer area and when she came upstairs she goes no. They were in the kitchenand they were looking around like and then Jim Sanford, who grind rode,frequently wit. That's his right along he'd, always go with. He was walking out. ATWIC was following.He was walking out towards the front 'cause. She was likedirupting them out and she said she I sould go and open the door to thegarage is his car in there and she's, lno and Jim said. I already looked inher ww, so so this the sergeant, Sanford Um,that's, come up a couple of different times. I've I've looked into so thatwas that was Brian's main right along, but then he retired within, like at theend of the year right he retired, to gay byinessing yeah. Sowas that a planned retirement that he did? Everybody know that he was retiring. I don't know okay Wul, they werepurni think. I have so many notes too, that I wastaking noteshistwo weeks then for retirement and it was going to be atthe end of the Mon. THAT'S THATS! That's what I could find, but I meanhat doesn't mean it's true, but I I found that it was the thirty first s osix December. Thirty, first of SE, en it was, I pretty sure, that's what itwas AI interget here. I think that at least the Cino understanding is that heput in his retirement papers on the date that thise hads occurred, Oky,which would make sense Fer rente two weeks to be the end of the Yela yeahand and then looking back 'cause. I told Alexokan when we when he came homethat night my car was in the Garage Alex, had pulled Hal car in the garage and then glion's car was in the dridbehind hose. So he w he was a curse. One out, then,if he usually bra always culled te grade,Alexs was intrige. Ok, U Everybody Got Al Anhe got home from.I work switch Colsso. I like they said. Why did look in the Gra? Didn't younotice his car was gone? Well then it occurred to me he poked outside thatnight. Okay, she said I he woas Laughan HomeCouse, O the movie Mhm Yeah Yeah, O Sol Um. That's interesting! SergeantSanford was at Your House thoday that he went missing Um, you know and he wasthe one on'. ONET get too far ahead: Umwelllet's ogoe back to Sanford. So, okay, so you got notified at work. Umand then did you immediately leave work? Then? Oh, my God, heave gone outright.WHEREDID YOU GO II said I dropped my stuff. It was like eight. Oh Five on IIgot I just like I just waghed, I just I gotta go and my supervisor was likewhat is wrong Igo. My husband is in thisting and she's like, Oh, my God.What like everyone was like. What what are you talking? It's like and I trycalling him and then she's like you, can't drive,you can't drive and I'm like a just take me. Take me I' out of the home, sowe get in the car. Well, I could barely walk down the steps to work. It waslike you know when you're walking and it's Liht Yolike, you c you can't, even...

...if you like, you're going nowhere, itwas like it was like his. I can't even explainit and he waid some walking down the stairs Bakstea GN. She gets me to hercar and she kicks me. Wait a minut wait. I had matty square she's havingbreakfast, I got ta get her, so she stopped the car quick and Ijumped out together 'cause she was having breakfast with girlfriends Ma. We gotto. We got to go Tanaho he'sissing, she said B. Like no one knows it's like just you can't even we get in the car and Wan a takes me to my house and when weget there, seein forts standing in my Fik in front of the garage was shut andhe's standing in front of the garage with Linda Bouers and he's standinglike it like at attention with his arms crossedbehind his back so stolic and I'm like he knows me like he knows, he's been toour house for dinner, like on shift. He come by Savin possibov coming over andeat and I said he's standing outside so stoic. I go up til. I go gym Jim it herspryand. If you hurt fom Bryan, and he goes, I don't know, and he just like shookhis head. Liside aside, I so what do you mean? What do you mean? Haven't youtopped Te? Pian said I don't know, I don't know where he is lo cold, so and LEDA after they're inmy house, walking in and around my house and the T and then they'restanding outtigh like they've never been inside. It is kind O likt and Ididn't know this till after I talked to Alexan. It kind of really upset me that I would definitely be upset on that,like dull, in like nohi yeah, so cold, so cold Nda same with Linda I te window as ther Costello was notyou're, saying that you can recall 'cause. I meanobviously a trust me. I've been through traumatic things as well, and when everything happens, you know yougot punnel vision too. You know, but Toyour Bestknowledge, you didn't see,Custallo, remember, Casello being there. It was just Linda in San Ferd. Don'tbelieve Castella was here. No, there was other. There was otherdeputies here at that point. People started flowingin, like my mom Kame, my sister Cam Um Ilet me think. Do you remember the name of that GuyPaul? Who Was it to talk to me briefly? Imust at twenty thirty people in my house at this point. When were got opeople were coming over in my family meand one of the deputies came. What was that not Ross? One of them came in and sat down withme for, like maybe for minutes, five minutes. How were you Abrian hows yourrelationship? Did you have an argument? I'm like now? No, I said we had. I mean we had arguments. Isthis an argument? No, I mean I do't knowwhat, I mean I know they have toask that that was basically the briefh little bit of like that. I've ever talked to them y.So did they interview? They didn't...

...interview any further than that daythat five minutes sit down in your kitchen, O wow, no yeah, okay Y. AH, no, theynever. They never even interviewed my oldest daughter Alex who, on this was Friday and Tuesday. She wasgoing to her orientation at Ohio State. She wastransferring from Ou to Ohio, state, Anne Bride and her drove down themorning of Turesday drove down and drow all the way back. They had good conversation. She said hewas on the phone with one of the somebody from the sheerest departmenttalking about jewelery and selling jewelery to them. Sh galax said it was the sheriff so whothat was, I'm not sure. Og, but she said Yeh de talk to him on theway home they never. They never interviewed my daughter to say you know.How was your dad? What d you guys talk about? You know nothing. They neverinterviewed one of my family members, ell. Okay, I mean D, You would think youknow. I mean you know Y. obviously you know like H, you know if you watch any dateline, youknow they'l always say like the first. You know the people closest are theones you want to get all that reason Forwa. Yes, you always want to ask thempy Hurst Yeah Okad, never, except for that those few minutes in my morning,room and then later that day, okay, so the Gui that came and talkedto me, he had me fill out it's like a half sheet of paper and it had like acarmonless copy in Thehmso. He fills us out he ays well. This is for briant'scellphone the model of a cellphone, so we canhave access to it now. This was probably nine nine thirty in the morningsomewhere around there, and so I signed it. He gave me a copyof it. They eave I'm gonhlet me step in here for amoment. That was your consent to to h, acceptthephone, but they have already searched the phone. Yes 'cause they hadthe phone 'cause. It was in the office right, Oh, they had the phone andeveryone was touching that phon they never sent it for forensics. They never. As far as I know they never at thatpoint they were already accessing it or theyt even did any fingerprints oranything Bu, okay M, because tought he told me that Li hours tipped up thephone and was like touching it, because it was on the desk where theSecretary Sits: Huh, okay, but most of the like, as faras it being the crime scene. Most of that was in his office or was itthroughout the whole place? You know it's not hectically anoffice, it was a back room like umit. Was a conference room? Okay, that's wherethat's where this to Litli Yeah, O God, so ith a back conferent irl and they said there was aeither it stillinfuriates me. It stillinfurites me because theythey let people come up there. Linda bowers was up there. MYK CASTELLOwas up there, the maintenance guy...

...walked in on it. He was up there. Theywere walking around that whole place. Everybody might saw the sea, the maintenance ky apparently walked in,saw the scene and that's the one who reported it right. The maintenanceerdoing owho reported Asfar, as I know, yeah. That's who called it it. Hecalled, I believe he called Sanford Furst Okynwhy Sanford. Why not just callingto the sheriff? why O nine, what non yeah? So what so? What's well at', Ithink hit's a good time to go to Sanford, so so Sanford was. You wouldconsider a friend of Brian Right, ybut, then, as soon as this happened,what was your so obviously you had the encounter where it was very stoic didnot offer any achletes didn't seem to really give you any information andthen he put in his twowignotice that day. What's what when's the last time you'vetalked to him, I have so not since the day in thedriveway there was no otheri tried calling him. He came. Howhen they hadme sign that form at the Househm I at happy of it, so they all left and ifriend. He actually came and said he's I hischildren and he's plice officer he' The PLAC e Tamavel he came and sell with myfamily t got knowing what his was. We wereworried. Um. I think I kept my winon jacket affer two days waiting to get acall, TA, Tirch and Um Tarry came and sat with us theentire day. I'm just, I think, is like comfort andprotection. Thatyou know I'm going to sit with your family because you don'tknow what's going on, so he sact her and I think that he showd up after thisother incident, I'm getting Ahoud of myself but okay, so jim had called me after I sign atconsenting Jim had called me and said we need you to come or I need to comeby the house and you need to sign another form to take his laptop, hissmall laptop that he traveled with. I said: Ok, I said in the meantime, as I'm waiting for him to come. I got on the phone right away, M and Althe FBI, and I said someone has got to help me. I don't know what is going on,but I said I'. I don't know what to do and I Gav the people o get touch a talkto someone and then my brother in laws, my sister in law wig. Just I let me think at husband, work, Hi Otes, he worked Ho said: Bitian H,yeah. He knew Somebod, he was an attorney, but he knew someone that Wookfor BC. I and he's like Um, just let DC I handle this. You know I'm like Idon't know what to do. I don't know if I want to talk to them. I don't trustthem. I don't know what's going on. I don't trust anybody here and so your hunch at this very beginningpart, was it wat something to do with either the the township or the SHERFsoffice or what Yahyes somebody...

...something or I didn't know even thepipeline, or this is were the nexest playline which I've I've gotten mynotes Toso something possibl, but not something to do with like his businessas a jeweller n hour. His past experience as a marine. Those thingsnot even arestaceeling. No, nothing like that something more with somethinglocal is is where te were eting local because of the way that they werehandling it like it felt lihefelt like it felt like I' as much as like JI hasbeen around and he was enly Witho. All of I ds likethis, so so to offer nothing and nocondolence, I mean who even guess how can you have that in yourconscience to even not offer something like it's just it just fel Weir, I'mgoing to tell you Sol. We O was to his birthday party OU OATA IT s. It was like W has a sideout here. This guy stand forever, went to the wake or the funeral service.Okay, did the trustees go to the the tervitionwenot invited? Ok, becauseLinda Linda is all about unotoriety and how Shecan, even in the even in all of this Linda, will insertherself at ry along lit so helpfull and she um she wants notariety Ogon. She adaptsyeah that's how I thawit yeain a defi. First, I kept her. You know they say Umkeep, your friends close,but your enemy's, closer p you and I started like I was. I would message herto see I like well, she would know she noped everything. SOMO was keeping herPo, say Hotwal, I gotta know if she knows, or his cok noke tack to town allthe time, so I stood doing that, but that I'm, likeyou, know what I don't even trust her. I completely shut myself off from allof them. So in the midst of I was Gong to I before the Cole Ouf theeye got that Olrom JEM. He needs to come by to have me Sinus, for so he comes, and then I call the F Biwhen he's on teiilver and II. Let him in- and I said M he's like why I have thisFon Esect Migt, for you to sign and I said, and he was going to starttalking to me N. I said you know what let me tell you something I said Brian did everything he couldfor this township, and I said I'm not talking to you, I'm not telling youanything. I said I don't trust you and he's like.I just want you to know that she said something and I I didn't it was like like that. CUNNEL Visiot, like youcan't you see em talking, but I can't even 'cause. I didn't care what he wassaying at the pot at time is so a imand he's like Um Lyou need to sign this,and I said you know what I said: I'm not finding anything. I S, I'm not saying I won't sign it,but Sall. I have somebody or an...

...attorney telling me you know representing me. I said I'mnot doing anything. 'cause, I don't trust any of you, okay n. This was how soon like so thesixteenth es y about ten thirty Elavenash Mabehi as on the sixteenth,or this is a later date. This is on the sixteent on the sixtiieth bcause. Hewanted me to come and sign this other form and he says oh by the way he says.Tyou do you have tha other form that you sig earlier her t h, that was, it was hee, said: Yeahi Gat. I see it. I said Chirst. He starts. Writing thesterial number down on a Brian's phone and I'm like waitand. I pull it awayfrom him. I said you already have a copy of this. I said you're not happying this againon this one have a ha side. I cudo Ha ta tapy tat to Te Fall. I sugesthis ishow sady the investing it's like. Why are you starting to waite this Dow andyou already have a copy of it? I said you came here for me to find for thecomputer yeah I didnt Yoen to esign in the form forthe phone. I said now, you're taking the cerial number doubt for this. Isaid no, I soaid get it on the other form. A it just made me feel uneasy, likewait, a minute they're supposed to have this copy to search the phone and now he's Kot out on this new F,which was like a whole like opoksized piece of paper and the other Thal wasonly half, so I don't know what they did with that sabcause. They couldn't even keep thepaper. Well, quite yeah. Well, what did he say whenever you know you SA ID li?That form was already tecul. I'M NOT SAYING I won't SID it. I said I don'ttrust any of you. I said I don't trust anything of what'sbeen going on. I said I don't like this is theres going to be more of theinterview coming up in the next couple of episodes but, like we said before,we have four and a half hours, so we're breaking up into manageable chokes.Let's discuss what was talked about so far. Andone of the big takeawaysstraightway is how strange law enforcement seem to be acting and howimmediately I think Victoria was questioning their motives right Ni. Soyou got ta figure, so she left at what eight thirty from her job. Wheneverything got right around eight or eight thirty, you know she was notifiedand by eleven o'clock, she's already ready and called the FBI. Now, when youthink about to put yourself in a traumatic event, put yourself in thatthat time where that bomb goes off, and you can't see everything you have youknow you just have punnal vision. You can't even perceive everything you knowand M so that that's where Victoria is right now and she had enough what shewas picking up and through this major major crisis moment was. I cannot trustlaw enforcement to the point where she isn't evenswhat.You know a friend of hers to that's bringing a document for her to for themtecide, so they can access to find her husband. She already senses somethingyeah. You know a dearn. That is the bigger thing. It's when you said I canhave trust law enforcement. It could be Jo public out there that doesn't haveany dealing with them, but we're talking about the people that cameovero her house for dinner, people that she was runs with Babysad foreverything, people that see newear they partia. But then, when it comes down toher crisis moment, you know he wasn't...

...even at the at the funeral. You know-and you know it was cold- didn't even giveher a hug was in her driveway in in her moment ofcrisis. You know someone who she cooked for m. You know couldn't couldn't giveher any anything. You know. Maybe he was trying to maintain thatprofessional mine, because this was him. This was Anford at work. We don't know that, butbut Sanford at work was stopping by and getting Hosta Right, II'll see hem for it on once freak atleast Brak. Okay, O ons, pery famor, but you're right, something seems fishyright up the bad and Victoria caught it right away. Um. I wanted to go backbecause there was a part earlier in the interview where she discusses how herhusband was taking her daughter down to Ou for the day, and he got a call fromaccording to the daughter, a sheriff now a lot of people, I notice call anydeputy or anyone with the sheriff department I sher, but there's only oneSHERF. So did she mean it was a deputy calling and inquiring about jewelery orWasnit the sheriff that could make a difference, but either way? What do youthink about that? I mean re before he goes missing. He gets a phone callaccording to the daughter from somebody from the sheriff's apartment inquiringabout children. Justicincidence I mean it's. You know it's so hard to say it'shard to assume that it really was sheriff Miller so mea. I hope thatlisteners don't feel that way. 'cause. I don't feel that way personally, thatit was necessarily M Miller. You know he gouldave just been someone from thesheriff's Office and then she thought you know the sheriff Um it's hard to say. You know I mean Brian.That was his job, and you know everyone knows the markup that you get when yougo to a diamond store, so I mean I could picture you know like peopleKinda, you know getting at that, but it can sometimes be confusing becausewe're dealing with a sheriff's office. So when someone says sheriff, theydon't necessarily mean Thu share off and that's probably what happened inthat call. If someonewas just asking him for a jewelry advice, you know, Ithink the more important thing is is I mean he spent a lot of time with herand it didn't seem like anything out of the ordinary. You know, and you know if they had a good drive m.It sounds like it's something that m that the daughter really cherished asfar as a memory. You know with her father, but you know I don't know you know. Could it have been something that wentbut then again, if you're doing this all above boared that wouldn't have been the reason thatyou would have gotten out of bed that night yeah. I don't know if that hasanything to do with that Um. Let me bring up this, then so why didn't they interview the family?Why did not? Why do the law enforcement members not contact Ed Family? Isn'tthat the first step in any kind of criminal investigation like one oh one?Well, clearly they were getting information enough that they felt likefrom some other source, which I think that will come out and I think I'Rbeable to put that together in later episodes. But that is to me a you know:That's like interview, one. Oh one go to the people that know hem the motive they pretty much bypassed it day, dontbe o stotistically right. People are killed by people, they know people thatare close to them. Very. The Stranger in murder is a much more exotic andrare type of murder. Correct and you know so the people closest to 'em. Youknow obviously w when they start putting this piece together. They knowthat Victoria was the last one to see him and how much time did they spendtalking to Victoria? You know very little in her kitchen on the most tragic day. I would say Idon't want to speak for her, but probably the most tratec day of herlife, you know, and so they didn't bring herback. They didn't try to gather more...

...evidence. You know, I think the hardpart is is this day is so important and as you see, we just pent a towoffoneful episode pretty much on this day and we've got even more to come justabout this day alone. Um, you know- and it's it's just so it's such animportant time and when you're in this tragic moment, there's things that youmiss. So it's like you're trying to pick up these little things and I'm I'mshocked at how much Victoria can recall on this, because you know it's it'sjust it had to have been Insaneo and going back to this teg. So I'm glad youBROUGHDT UF how crucial and how much, how many important things are set upabout the whole case on just t e small little window of time right, becausenow we have the forensics and already off the bed. They skewed it up.incontamity, Philly IV own is contaminated t. It sounded like wordingto multiple WITNESSISM. We have some UN confirmed sources too that wore in thecrime scene and we're going to be we're reaching outo them right now, we'reactively working those leaves and trying to bring them to you. But wehave multiple people in Victoria out of roron mouth eamatter, how there was nocontrol of to crime. sceine that you had Linda bowers, it seems to be allover. The place is touching a cell phone she's doingall kinds of things, and then you go back to the fact that the person that'sdumbled on the SCINE didn'td call nine one. One. I've been talking to my wifeabout this yeah. So let me put this out there and wentyou to try to tell me what you think. Se Walk into your office you're comingin turning on the lights and you see o the office is disheveled right, becausewe have report that it was there's blood. There's nobody there's nobodyhurt that you can see. I mean you can tell somebody wit, hurt that you seeBloo, but you don't see anybody. Would you call Nian right away or would youcall your boss? I would oh with one. Would I callasolete first Um. I think I would call nine undred andone and then call my boss, but I mean that would be that's a tough decision,though Y Oaus, when I first heard that o'mthing like that Fishas, themaitenance Guardin call nine one one. He called Linda bowers. First Riaen aparently, probably told himicoion one was at any caued Sanford, oh, so I even Sandford like is pretty muchlike nine one one when I yes and no so so I guess the questionis: Is Um, you know what what's going on withSandford. Why did he need another copy of the information from Bryan's Fon? Aremember, Brian's phone is the thing that got him up at two awe in themorning to to leave to go down there and let me just upir because whateveras on Brian's phone is probably the enser o the whole mystery right, I meanif we really had it. If we had who got him up, I I mean that's highlyincriminating right, go aheadthe, sir. You know so he's trying to get it ow.So the sheriffs office has the right to the phone. The only person that doesn'tnecessarily directly have the information of the phone. What could be Sanford right because hedidn't have that for and he had a different form per victoria that he washaving. He was writing down the zero number of the phone. Why would you needthat? SERO number? Did you did you misplace the form? So that's questionnumber one possible Ri, but let me Guess Wat. Your question number two is,as is like some kind of back door, maybe eaning to pull it out of evidenceand look at it and change it. I don't I mean I don't know this is allspeculation right, we're not accusing anybody of anthing but we're just ornes prone it at the wind. You guysare thinking about it right now we're thinking about it. Why would you needthe zero number from the phone that that to me is a very puzzling thingthat I don't have an answer for it, but that raises suspicion. Why were youcalled immediately rather than you know,...

...there's protocol, you know and there'sProtico on every job and when you walk into something like this there'sProtoco, it's nine one, one, it's a recorded line. If you call Sanforddirectly, it's not a recorded line, O goo point too. So it means that if the person on the other on the phonewanted to ask questions about the crime scene or make suggestions about what todo with the crimes, that person could do that and go unrecorded, potentiallyor tell them to do something before it all happens. Or you know I don't knowyou know I mean you just don't you don't know, you can speculate all daylong and I'm not here to speculate. I'm I'm here to we're here to bringVictorias interview. We her to bring light to the case m. You know so thatthat's our MINGL, our our goal is not to you know, cause anybody that that undo harm.That's right, but I mean still it's a natural question. We've got a questionthat you got a question right. Oh, why is that which we have reached out to toe we're trying to reach out to Um Sergeant Sanford? We don't have adirect line for him. We did reachout to lendabout Torigt. We did reot to Londoand Mite Costello, neither one of both of them declined. I think we talked toisland, but just in case you haven't listened to the first episode, so thepipeline, the Nextis plapline, was the very first thought that victoriamaniconhad remember when you were asking her. What was going through mind. That's myfirst thing that shethoght had to do with her husband's disappearance is, isbefore we found the body but brass what she thought an I hadsomething to d ith. He nextis Piplin right, which you know, went through Laett TownshipUm. It went through the same property asthe fire department, which was a levy at that point. They were trying to getapproved, which Frian was very much for Um and it there's more the lovey or forthe Pogon for the Fire Department Levvy, but he was not for ths, not mor thepipelane. No now it's interesting Um, Linda bowers, was instrumental in thepipeline in Modina County. You can check out her web page Um ifyou'd like for further information on that, but but she led a countywidegroup Um for I we want to talk about Linda with Het. We will wait, lie it onthe window with the pipeine. Well, let we'll let Victoria talk about Lindawith the pipeline dos come up pretty soon. Probably the next episode yeahtalking about that M, so big take aways from this interview, thit's Mo R. Firstof all, it's the first time you guys get to hear of Victoria. You know the sound quality is not great.We did our best, but you know we. We did leave it very um uncut to just it',it's directly from her. This is what she wanted and that's what we're ougtto do so is to give her a voice and to paint the picture better thanwhat we've had thas far, which I think gecan already see, there's a lot moredetail to this than just the quick little snippits which we were ABN tosummarize in one episode, so you know the next episode is going to cover moreof that day, and you know it cover. It paints alarger picture, you're GOIN, to have a lot more. You know I like forty fiveminute ish of information coming at Ya. This is just directly her interview, Um,you know and it'll. I think I think o'll you'll appreciate it and before wepull away from this win, thowg there's one las thing and Aus I was listeningto it. I wrote into my notes in giant letters, and I think this is really big-is that immediately you felt likcover...

...up to Victoria, we kind of addressed atHous. She called the FBI within a couple of hours, but she wasimmediately sensing to cover up Yeh and her moment of crisis. She felt thatthis was a coverep or something of the sort. You know her, she didn't know who to trust. Shedidn't know who to go to her husband's gone. She doesn't know about the officeas far as how much blood is there or you know, and then now she's gettingrumors Yei'm. Sorry, let me interrupt hat. This is also before they had theoffice repainted within a day or two. This is before the body was found inthe really strange, conflicting reports between the sheriff's apartment and theautopisy. This is right on the ground. The first fewminutes, she's already sensing cover up and she's, going to get a whole lotmore reasons to believe that there 's a cover up in the coming days and monthsafter this isn'tyeah. You know put yourself in victorious situation. Yourspouse is gone. You you've only known this for two hours and you begin to refuse to sign things from thedepartment because something doesn't add up, not because you don't want yourhusband back, but because something's not adding up anymore, like it's, it'snot making sense and that people that were your friends are not being therefor you Um. You know and- and you know the day just gets crazyr I couldn't.When we were doing this interview, I couldn't believe we were still on thesame day. I thought. Oh, my Gosh Ie me a long interview it's a big day and itturned out to be a long interview, but guys thank o joining us. We're going tobe bringing you more of the Victoria macron interview, we're going to bebringing you more of the interview with her investigator but in between now andwhen the next episode comes out again, it's important for you to share thisinterview to like it on whatever social media APP that you're using to listento it or paccast AP. And let's just get this out. There put the pressure backon the investigators from the law enforcement and from statewideeverything put the pressure back on those people that are responsible fordoing their job force them to do their job and let's try to find briant'skillers.

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