Invisible Ships podcast
Invisible Ships podcast

Episode 12 · 11 months ago

The Forest Through The Trees

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Investigator Paul Hartman takes on the tough questions our listeners are asking. In light of the recently released BCI report, Paul still believes that Bryon Macron was murdered. 

Twas a long time, Comingnmov has notforgotten about to this Antrusti. What missing, then his body was found in alake authority said they found no evidence of Vouplayn, but the victims,family and the community were not buying. I so either way you know,here's the bottom line there are len, an teeer ely will be pursued and we'llsee where that takes us. And again you know my opinion is having done this forsot. Her Teo case is untollable. As stated in the report quote, there wasno new increincontrovertible evidence discovered indicating other persons mayhave been invelved involved in the death of Rian mackron and quote. Thereport starts at day, one in two thousand and sixteen and oneauthorities were called to a bloody scene at the LANBIA administration.Building Ryan Matron's office was trashed blud everywhere. According tothe report, authorities believe it was staged. The OTYA cownship Trusttesebodies was founded two months later in Chimawallak the medical, examiner andfroms in the autopsy that, while there were numerous wounds, most weresuperficial in nature and none were fatal in enough themselves. The medicalexaminer found his dat to be inconclusive and that rullin still fast,but there are so many questions still like. Why was there no water andbackrond long if he was found in a lake if he had expired on the shore line,when that lake thought it's traditional, it's quite common to have a flood planethere to have excessive water. Yo could have easilly washed into the lake fromthere again. That's a theory. Everything presented at the newsconference today, wit stuffwe, already knew a couple years back. Thedifferencein now tecase is close. OTHE OBIL has access to most of e evidence.I am trying to make this report available. Fo you today in a sinsercope that it can bring some closure to the community and some penality to themackrock family. The family of backrondn set ne side of this Sason. WeDont egree withthe Fiin, because there are so man inten an explain, action bythe sheriff's Office. I think many of those will finally come to life by theinvisible ships podcast wow daren- that is a tall order, awhole lot of pressure on our little humble podcast, but we are gettingsomewhere. Hopefully, oh absolutely, you know we have got all theinformation now we didn't have that before we had e, we knew some of thestuff was coming out and we were a little bit ahead of the game. I think, but we obviously didn't want tointerfere with what maw enforcement was doing, but now we've got it all: We'veGote, you picked up the the file. I SA Thirty Two gigabytes of the BCI file onBrian Makron and today we're going to...

...be doing by our own secret weapon, esthe man that have or more of the good leads in this file or from Mall HartmanAmerican famly, investigtors Gin t be joined us today and we've been goingthrough facebook reading all your questions and comments we're going to be trying to bring someof those to pall and we're going to be asking him hard questions, see wherehe's at Oh yeah and he's he knows it, and you know I think one of the hardestthings which we're going back to the beginning. Our episode one was suicideversus murder. You know, and I think everybody's got that tossup right now.Obviously they just tipp their hand to us. So you know we've got to go backand and do that you know what the cool thing is. Is the information about thesearches that were in the newspaper an the peaking journal here you know, cover is stuff that PaulHartman found and turned over and you got ta remember. Paul Hartman is stilla huge advocate for the murder of Brian mackron, Yep and we'll see where he'sat today when we have a mind, but I think that he's Goingno stay Thrueh tothat so wout further Ordo. I guess, let's get into it and we'll bring fallin right now and we'll be asking these puertions ready, forithey Paul How's it goingtgoing on all sorts of stuff online. What we thought would be valuable wouldbe to get your cake on you, provided the information for those searches that Brian found yeah iinmyopinion tee EU Thet Act to support the conclusion. If thatmakes sense, so you don't think the searches were at all weird th searchingabout how? How long does it take to freeze to death or how to cut yourartery or any of that that wasn't, you don't think, that's Tran iilcthat itwas thereright, thee, searches, ocurd, probablystarting Abou, two weeks or so prior to his death and asome of them or like alinkthre on Cora and websites like that, so I think, asa metter of curiosity, Yi cannoexplain, I don't have ao enough intormation.Only Brian Really knows what was going through: Ahai noticedabout. It wasofarchs kind of seem Ikeisi sort of thing like the cold in the water.That's afterwards that makes sense, but when he searched it, but maybe didn'tmean anything you knowthesoteand. I anourthe timelinein the report.

Youll notice that there are two sudsifyou Ed Record: Yo chows, thatier, tseparate, ndistint, obes, thereothe,Mon of Jeer, the sixtee Hmontheo, and if you work through thetimeline you'll see there were two cars there at one time. Oi would direct you to that portion ofthe report. An you'll see that one car comes inanwat whatever time, adanotherone approaches and d pull in and a leaves, and then the other car leavesat lest uccoingto the timeline. So so Brian wasn't necessarily alone thereisanser somebody else's eems, O me. It was Oddhatyo. Had Twovehicles tere about the time of this incident. Can we sit guy, say something. This comes up all the time believe melike. When we're going through facebook and stuff we heard from Forest Thomsonand from BCI that this crime scene look state and a lot of people are saying.Well, ensurance would be a motive that you could commit suicide with. Youwouldn't wanted to look like suicide, so your family would get a payout. Do you know anything about hisinsurance situation or you anker that I don't know that the terms of theinsurance policy I knowfor. For example, I have federalinsurance from my prior employment that I carry throughto the present day and there is no peo thatiide disqualifies payment ofthe insurance soyeah. I don't know I havet een thepolicy, so I don't know now. Are we talking about one policythrough the township trustcins? Okay, I knowt, which is in public recorddiscussion, which we will provide later, but I would like to assure thelisteners that this is not a high dollar life insurance, Polisin Ono.Certainly not it's really a minimal amount, quite trankly, MEA Wenoug,nothing to sustain a famiyoer, the longerm when it comes to the searchesthat were done- and I remember when we talked to you in Victoria way back whenwe're recorded that se talk awhifoot searches around the lake. A lot ofpeople think that maybe Brian could have stumbled into the woods and, asforason explain it's a tradition in the springtime that if there's a flood o bycould flow into the lake or he talked about how it's traditional, that thelake floods, and so if he was hiding in the underbrush and died of hypotheremythere or something that he could have been carried into the Lake H.

I dont thinkhe wandered into the woods.Firstly, if Youe been to OI, my first question is what was yeah was weirdthinking about to right towards the inlet which sodid'Teanthingand. This was in wintertime, so the trees wouldn't have any leaves oranything. It would be easier. The spot, fiysmaye one rontherBu distans about walking into the trees, takes absolutely no sense. Har No treesto speak Cos, othey dn such as that, and you know Ye certainl didn't cawl onsomebody's Lo and hide out for two months dead and they didn't notice inAl also. They had tods rightththery of the FTHE body floating into the Blake Ding the period December. True Aruary,twenty one is the middle of the winter. Imean no rainfall, you know we had thatL per heryou get dwaters in the wintertime on there's no rain right. Wehad a melking. That was it. You know we had that melt. The question is wasthernnprly fightthisom times they lose the road CIA road over there by the inlet, yeah,very good point and Brian Weigh two hundred and fifty pounds. I knowperperfact stream during periods of heavy rainwill flood and they'll close the road. So there ought to be a record of theDATSA which they close, the road, so that will support Orehu the contentionthat his body was floated into the water in the middle of the winter time. Are you kiding Le Right if he wasflooding, that's a whole different deal, but no abslutlse all youhave to OIEA right. So if he wasn't on the shoreline,where was he exactly Wani hytotisize and I think there'spreasonal this dump the body somewhere and came back likely a week later and place the bodyinto the Ile Canal there base on e witness stateless we haveyeah, which is something we definitely want to cover later I was listening. Wewere talking about that a little bit...

...last night right, Oh yeah, sure Yep. What about so so, just going back to, Iknow it doesn't seem it seems kind of redundant, but at they you know thatthey have search dogs on the day. Brian Weth missing the sixteenth out therebys Col did they did not do any ftsearch at all, so no dogs out there,either Huh sli'se o didn't believe he was there. Okay over the sheriff barked RTE fire departmentfrom searching the lake that day right. In fact, I heard second end that one of the DefeSadi you guys gointo the lake, we're going to arrest. You Wow, of course, what's the basis for thatdefying their order to do not go into the water. I'd, say: Brown tail, Iguess pothes guys are vy and they create loy hat constitutional, butthat's how they operat, but if they could have gone if he could have gotout of his car, let's just go back to appease the LISTENERSO and stuff. If,if he got out of his car and walked up towards the magical woods, which Iwould think most people would call a marsh, it was snowon ground. You'd havefootprints right. I mean the FID, a Gin Haryouyouldhavebood, you nowell. We dohave footprints it'Slook at the pictures on the BCI. They do not matchwhat the boots that Brian was wearing e', something else o o Geroud on you,but fors, a all the FITES MES Frends boot. No, they did not. No, you will. No! You Talke t the pateight right. We talked yeah O Yep, an I'm sure. He told Yous, likeTeioureen EIAR kind of workbook body, footrit right right, so there's a lie right.There Gi, you know ust so much there that it e its hard to know. You know andagain I'm etern about the shoes concerned about the fact that theydidn't find a motive and I certainly have identified hmoe and which, of course, I think is got apparently which is okay.I don't Care Yeahmcour Tos peconference and he saidnothing that we did already know. Well, we got no physical evidence. We gotnone of this. We don't know that we don't know that, so we don't knowanything. I want to what a surprise yeah. Well, nothing was done. I meanyou, you did it all. I mean that's just that's the reality of thit. You knowwe're not trying to blow smoke up you...

...or anything. I mean look e Yo file andlook at it yourself. Eer Youve submitted everything you crack theontop y. You had all the eye, witness stuff you, you brought all these leadsto them and they just chucked it up. Saying we're good old boys club andwe're not going to step on our Sheriff Buddy's. They think it's a suicide andit looks good enough for me and they fuck it in their desk until forcedfinally decided, because he had a little bit of pressure to pull it outand close it because he wants to reay elected because of selection yeap.Exactly I mean that's exactly what happened. Everybody O was right. welvedone a lot of good work. It's that oon going through the PCI file like there'sone, where the cops ere, taking notes that you calle them and think that youmight be able to unlock the computer and they're writing like the FBI. HadIt secret service had it, they can't do it like. Who is this guy? That'scalling us, but you delivered on that. You Hae something that the SecretService and all the egg has tat. Qonaco couldn't do D, so you have a ton ofcredibility. Tell me why dod they think thes scene was stage like. Why are theysaying that their explanation was there was a water bottle, sittingon table? That was not upset,and I don't. I don't see what Thas means defiitey so in a crime scene,every single thing ees to be destroyed, orttle e, it couldesy somebody who cam in thereafter this scene was observed so that MEES, nothing unlessl letsthey fingerprinted, the Bil and Saidbn Singepson Eryo. No, that right, atthe, Waldat ther was a LM andFrintentra on the wall. Well Yourself, W, would you goput your handson the wall makes no sense to me. You know right so so I want to go backto the police and BCI, and everyone saying that the crime scene lookd likea stage crime sene- and I don't I don't- want to get aheadof ourselves or ahead of you in the investigation but could av? Could itpossibly be that the investigators that looked at it were suffering from tunnelvision and that they were picturing a crime scene where it was some kind ofcrazy maniac that came in there on a stabbing frenzy, and this could havestarted out iu totally different direction? There could have been a timewhere you know we don't even know if this is the first clime seme right.Like here's. What I was told the sheriff came unseen and said Yeah.She looks like a suicide to me even before your body was found yeahthe very day that ate ofhetheeixeen, so they already already someonam up Er Min Thatthis is going to be a suicide. I'mtelling you so IMEAN so thatsets the...

...stage for all that follows. We knowthat state suicides do happen. I think they're much rare, but typically thebody is found right away right like when you stay to suicide. You don'talso hide your body rightand. The fact of the matter is: If he juss wanted to imself, why would he even have to leaveor chowase a painful and slow way to do it, yeah how Mane could have gone itLai in the ground behind the building? That's kinws tent, but here's here's it.On the day before this happened. He talked to his buddy in New York andrearasion travel plans. He was going to go to New York to visit his friend andhe mad these traveler agements rearrangements fourteen. So if he's contemplating suicide asthey would suggest over period of three or four bleefs, why would he even havedone that? Wa, no tes? No, you wouldn't have right, so so what it cuts against Thefa, but anyway, go ahead. So you'vealluded to the idea that Brian wasn't Thi obviaslly. You don't feel thetheory of Brian Getting out of his car and walking straight into the woods toquote coat woods. Orret iget'Slook at thiohe Isue, youhave tailor getting married, Abouti three and he sees a guy walking theother way by the lake to say it isn't the same person right because theynever gave a description in the report similar descriptionorsoshit Ike et, butthe report as a specify the Gu was worring this. He was this call thisthis hery. You know all that kind of stuff. Correctan taylors report you know gives us a guy in shorts,which we know Brian obviously wasn't in shorts right. He was in jeans thatwoulnow. So if we're going off, if we're using Taylor as the reference ofwhat the clothes were, it does not match right and that's what the joggersaw to Giinsoh ESA Walkin, the other way along thelakeshore sohow. Do We notite same guy? I mean you would almost assume it wasthe same guy right, Wellhcraiwan't s or the eather right right. So I guess I'mGonno have to call that woman adand brush it up a little bit to see justwhat she remembers. Bucu Y, it could have been so you know th again,their facts doesn't make sense. No...

Nas walking toardcapli wrote. I guessit is Weres the blood trail well, any of theBCI photos that we saw from the scene. There is no blood, there might be oneprint. That kind of looks like the heel from Bryan's boot and there are clearly totally different boot patterns allaround that footprint and we're not investigators and we've never claimedto be investigators. So we don't know by looking we're just amateurs if whatbootprint was there first or not, but very interesting thing that one of ourlisteners point out, because I posted just pictures of the snowy footprintsin the boots. The backs of Brian's boots are completely free of any mud ordebris whatsoever, and it looks like there maybe was kind of a drag markinto snow, so some people ere thinking that possily Brian, was dragged. Here'sthe thing that Yo Cape Out ecausth pictures, ofit choose right, wit, Thebu,t up Yep right okywhy would te be the top I've, no idea mocdown and atter te andthe top to Ceter dragn tothe bu right now. That night, though, waspretty cool right, so there wouldn't be Wulde mud. An Ros and places right, youwould thinkiis gonna BEMO IT' Gon to be on the SOI shoes right. If HEU'swalking, fobal the shoes are pretty clean. So how do you get le Top of theshoes if you walk into the Mars Erever they hypothesize and leay down and die right anybody listening to go to ourfacebook, as we do have pictures of the boots as they were recovered in theirpart of the BCI file, and you can see what we're talking about right, whatI'm curious about Paul and, if you're interested in disclosing it? What doyou think your series of crime scenes? Was it? Do you think it started in theoffice or do you think it started in the car? Do you think it started out onthe N A parking lot? I think it started in the car and ended up at the the cown hall that could explain some of the win.Here's, the otherthing! No, let's look at there. I'm Gonta put thisceiditappers for the blood that he was in the C seated in the driver seat, but I've got pictures ofoid, the MOLTgowing wher. You clearly see someone whos clotes were satuated with bloodwas sitting on the passage you sea wow, that's great, O, thattheoy right.We, it get appears to me. It acar possible that somebody drovesthe car and he was on the on the Passenge Sea R. Whoever was onthe passenser seed had blood on the seat of their pants.

So the stage fine scene cound make moresense. If, if the crime, happend F assault happened in the car, and maybethey went into the office for like a negotiation or something even allowthem access to clean up right, we, I could see them bringing them inthere asking them where the money is or whatever yeak. The thing e also think about hereis this: Wasn't a nice fight right I mean we don't we don't have any reasonto believe that Brian necessarily was in a if fight. He could have been agunhol like being tortured, right. Well, thes, car, hely, Gun, point, thinsdidn't go well, and they say they were no defensive ones. Well, I would hypothisize that the cuts on theforearms more defensibe right, I ean. I agree with you onYourown Yorrm uptobloi yeah, but they saw suicide the wholetime, so they thought maybe some hesitation or trial marks, maybe orsomething they went into this thing thinking it. I was a suicide straightaway and I know that when de clearly metwith them n February, that was their beliefe riht for the start, so theyprejudged it. I guess is why I'm saying Yeah Soso the bottom line is they're lookingfor sact at to support a theory rather than to develop sacts, leading to atheory, a difference right, there's a hugedifference. Yeah. I don't know if you're willing to say this or not, butwe know that you don't believe that it was suicid you're, not buying that. Areyou closer to solving this? Do you do you have leads that the authoritiesdon't know about that? We can't talk about yet. Yes, yes, but let me just say this: Athis is obvous where's, the God wat iso wrs Tgod. If this was suicide, where's, the God, the gun that he toldeveryone he had sur o because ive talked to people who actually saw it. Okay, so this is not supposition, hehad o. It was a clock. Are you I to say Anthingon the recordabout what you think themotive is or not? Yet? No! No! No! No because, ofcourse, actally said there was e moter bu o upon what I have sound and learned yeah sobut. I need toexplort it there's a green cerry bag. That'smissing that Arian Torically held in his car anI believe, that's where I kept his guysin and he had burner phone too anit, that's gone, so mook e carry bag with stuff in it nowwas it the bad guy stole it could be or did a share stey gramage because theywanted to get the gun it kind of comes...

...down to the keys are locked in the carthey coated to the sheriff in Palmlo whatever that is, and then you know whogot the keys that want I to get it out with the bag in the car dam time toSOMOE grab. You know, that's the issue there. The problem is you can't trust thepolice it'sthat's Very Triss? That's the problem yeah an if they were onest people. Yosay: Well, obviously they stole it. You Know Theyre, obviously tos to right, so it's it a real mess. Well I mean wet. Youguys know my attitude titet. I did find it interesting, though, that ThattheDci guy put in the fact that I I hold some animous against these th wethey got that throughout I meanthey just or they wanted the easy route and like even in your interview withthem, you can tell that it's like okay, we're appeasing you, but you know wewe've already like we're going to back our brothers. Basically, you knowthere's San on suicide. That's we got the case. Okay, let's just say that wedid our due diligence. Okay S, the issue of the missing emails that another issue yeah, that hisemails were wiped from right around the yeahfom the day before ther the N thinfor. It was deleted and thenvicoria called her PA that person and they say well yeah. They were moreemails. An La I' like to see those the emails on the the Computer Wee. We have a really good lady whodoesn't di the Fren Port. If we can get the computer o when we get the computerin the phone, well ask Ceri to look at it yea. Looking specifically forspecific issues right right, I know that we made some inquiries of the DCIGuy Ande say. Well, I don't know I'll have to go with the friends is guyswell. I would think that, as an investigator,you would want to know what's in your Fren, either way you know, here's the Bott ofline there are Le En Tome, Presu Eretey will be persued and we'll seewhere that take Isan again, you know my opinion. N is having done this o. Soher you just go, get the rain. You got toget the rain, not you know Wat. You sayin a Biro awhere's thewheres. The one study legoly walked into Fudid we have during the winter months. Then he would 'T. I his body would havewa into Therightwe, really appreciate...

Paul coming on and talking to us, andit was very helpful to have him kind of pick apart in some of the things thatare in the BCAR report with us and talking to Paul he's very confidentthat this was a murder right. He has at way Fr m from that and he believes hecould solve. If ten, there is some stuff that he's told us off the recordthat we just we're not going to go into we're not going to talk about, but Ican tell you this that this isn't just delusional thinking this isn't justVictoria maccron unable to accept the fact that our husband committed tuicide.This isn't just three guys. I wanted to make a podcast and can't find anythingelse. Believe me there's so many different cold cases and this case hasbeen so hard and caused a lot of struss in all of our lives. It's become like aa fulltime job. I would like honestly just to choose some other topic or talkto somebody that has a coldcase book coming out, but we're staying with thisbecause we believe in it to and right absolutely you know it's been a crazyroad. You know, if you have ask any of us to say that Yo would get the repordwild words n this podcast, it's just you know it's crazy. I mean you cangive credit wherever you feel like. It's do you know, but the reality is isthe case is really evolving. RIGHK Owt, we thought it was very important. Get ahold of off wo submitted this stuff. You guys here we're impartial,tusiscase yeah I mean if it turns out to be a suicide. Well be the first totell you that the so as I ri just talking to Paul and what he knows whathe knows about what was going on it's different than what you think. Iknow a lot of people looking at a pipeline or other politicians that arelocal and stuff like that. I don't think that's the right! TRACGEAL! Thinkthat we can. You know I mean it's. I don't know if I'm quite there yet, butyou know it doesn't matter where we're at we're giving you the informationthat we feel is pertinent to the case to paint the story of what happened andthen, ultimately, it's not solved. So you know, but what the crowd sourcingand everything has been a huge thing. We're going to continue to dig wehavegot a Plethra of information to go through now. You know I've been logging, some somepretty long hours, just getting through all the stuff that the BCIS released itand it really does open up a lot of doors. I hope that you guys aren'tthrown into tell yet because there's so much more to go, you know we're going to continue topump out he the information to you guys and in ways that you know it's easy foryou guys to hear, and we just appreciate all the support through this.You know we're just we're going to do what we feel is right and that's youknow giving you guys the information, but by no means are we trying to slantthis case to anything that it's that it's not in Paul, I don't think, is either Imean you heard him. He doesn't have explanations for everything. This is ais a such unusual case that we don't...

...have the answership if we did it wassolved, but I think if we had enough people talking about it, I do think itwill get solved and I do I do believe Paul and that he will solve it. He'sjust he's, got the ability and he's got the desire and he's not given up youguys. Just stay tuned therwill be more updates coming we're kind of moving.Now, with the speed of the case, I think that there are more developmentsand I wouldn't be surprised one day if you wake up and there's an indictmentin this case. However, in the meantime, we're going to still be posting onFacebook, and we enjoy talking with you guys there keep putting your questionsout there. We like that critical thinking thatgoes into it, and we try to bring those ideas and objections to Paul to seewhat he has to say about it. We are also talking to the macan family.I don't know how much from the BCI file they want us to put out there. We choseto put some pictures of footprints in the snow and footwear because it didn'tshow any Gore or anything like that. We're not trying to sensationaize thisor do anything that would harm the family. We want to be a help. We don'twant to get in the way and we've said that all long we are not sloce were noteven amateur sluce we're not even really conspiracy, theorists, doesn'tmatter what the Vacan Journal said. We're we're doing this just trying toget the people that have been there, the people that are investigated andanyone that will talk to have them tell you their story and that's what we'vebeen doing, and we can't help the fact that it doesn't always coincide withthe official line from the investigators. Absolutely you know. Ithink that the reality that we really want to, let you guys know, is we'rerespectful people who respect the law enforcement who respect people thathave contributed to this an and that who haven't in whatever we can do to paint thisstory to what it was is what we're trying to do here. Yeah- and you know,is I right now. I don't even know if we we don't the podcasters, don't have asuspect. We don't know who this could be, but I don't think it's probably very likely that I's anyone that we'vediscussed so far in the program or head on the firm I mean just by the picturesin the that we used to put online it's hard to. You know think that he actedalone. When there's two sets of Printe Yh, the invisible ships podcast is producedby invisible ships, productions NLC all rights reserved for more information, go to www dot,invisible ships, podgastcom.

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