Invisible Ships podcast
Invisible Ships podcast

Episode 12 · 1 year ago

The Forest Through The Trees

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Investigator Paul Hartman takes on the tough questions our listeners are asking. In light of the recently released BCI report, Paul still believes that Bryon Macron was murdered. 

It was a long time coming, a case the macdna community has not forgotten about to this day. And trustee what missing? Then his body was found in a lake. Authorities said they found no evidence of foul play, but the victim's family and the community were not buying so either way. You know, here's the bottom line. There are leads yet to be they will be pursued and we'll see where that takes us. You know, my opinion is heavy done this for soon here cases. As stated in the report, quote, there was no new income in controvertible evidence discovered indicating other persons may have been involved, involved in the death of Brian Macri and, quote. The report starts at day one in two thousand and sixteen, when authorities were called to a bloody scene at the Lafayette Administration building. Brian macarin's office was trashed, blood everywhere. According to the reports, authorities believe it was staged the Lafayette Township. Trustees body was found two months later in Chippewa Lake. The medical examiner confirms in the autopsy that while there were numerous wounds, most were superficial in nature and none were fatal in and of themselves. The medical examiner found his death to be inconclusive and that ruling still stands. But there are so many questions still, like why was there no water in macrons lungs if he was found in a lake? If he had expired on the shoreline when that Lake thought? It's traditional, it's quite common to have a floodplane there to have access with water, and he could have easily washed into the lake from there. Again, that's a theory. Everything presented at the news conference today was stuff we already knew a couple of years back. The difference in now the case is closed, so the public has access to most of the evidence. I am trying to make this report available to you today in a sincere hope that it can bring some closure to the community and some finality to the macron family. The family of Backron sent new spot this statement quote. We don't agree with the findings because there are so many inconsistencies and unexplained actions by the sheriff's Office. I think many of those will finally come to light by the invisible ship's podcast. Wow, Darren is tall order. A whole lot of pressure on our little humble podcast, but we are getting somewhere. Hopefully. Oh, absolutely. You know, we have got all the information now. We didn't have that before. We had we knew some of this stuff was coming out and we were a little bit ahead of the game, I think, but we obviously didn't want to interfere with what law enforcement was doing. But now we've got it. All we've got. You picked up the file. I saw third to Gigabytes of the BCI file on Brian macron.

And today we're going to be joined by our own secret weapon. He's the man that half or more of the good leads in this file or from Paul Hartman, American family investigators, going to be joined us today and we've been going through facebook reading all your questions and comments. We're going to be trying to bring some of those to Paul and we're going to be asking them hard questions and see where he's at. Oh yeah, and he's he knows it. And you know, I think one of the hardest things, which we're going back to the beginning our episode one, was suicide versus murder. You know, and I think everybody's got that toss up right now. Obviously they just tip their hand to us. So you know, we've got to go back and and do that. And you know what the cool thing is is the information about the searches that we're in the newspaper, the Beacon Journal here, you know cover, is stuff that Paul Hartman found and turned over. And you got to remember Paul Hartman is still a huge advocate for the murder of Brian Macron Yep, and we'll see where he's at today when we have a mind, but I think that he's going to stay true to that. So without further Aso, I guess let's get into it and we'll read fall in right now and we'll be asking in these questions. Ready for take call this. Hey, Paul, how's it going? All sorts of stuff on online. What we thought would be valuable would be to get your take on you provided the information for those searches that Brian found. Yeah, in my opinion, every they used the cherry pick the facts to support the conclusion, if that makes sense. So you don't think the searches were at all weird? The searching about how how long does it take to freeze to death or how to cut your artery or any of that? That wasn't you don't think that's strange. I will conceive that it was there and I found that right. These searches occurred probably starting about two weeks or so prior to his death and in some of them or like a link through on Cora and websites like that. So I think as a matter of curiosity, but I cannot explain. I don't have another enough information to not only Brian really knows what was going through then. That I noticed about it was a lot of searches. kind of seemed like a hindsight sort of thing, like that cold in the water that's afterwards. That makes sense, but when he searched it, that maybe didn't mean anything. If you notice, and I went through the timeline in the reports and you'll notice, that there are two s you ease.

If you read the report, he shows that they were to separate indistinct automobiles there on the morning of December the HMM, not one but two. And if you if you work through the timeline, you'll see there were two cars there at one time. So I would directly to that portion of the report and you'll see that one car comes in at whatever time and another one approaches and pulls in and leaves and then the other car leaves, at least according to the timeline. So so brian wasn't necessarily alone. There's cancer somebody else's, but it certainly seems to me it was odd that you had two vehicles there at her about the time of this incident. Can we say guy, say something? This comes up all the time, believe me, like when we're going through facebook and stuff. We heard from Forrest Thompson and from BCI that this crime scene look stage and a lot of people are saying, well, insurance would be a motive, that you could commit suicide but you wouldn't want it to look like suicide so your family would get a payout. Do you know anything about his insurance situation or you answer that? I don't know that. The terms of the insurance policy I know for it. For example, I have federal insurance from my prior employment that I carry through to the present day and there is no priva though that suicide disqualifies payment of the insurance. So yeah, I don't know. I haven't I've not seen the policy. So I don't know. Now we talking about one policy through the township trustees. Okay, because I know it, which is in public record, discussion which we will provide later, but I would like to share the listeners that this is not a high dollar life insurance policy. Oh No, certainly not. It's really a minimal amount, quite frankily. Mean we're nothing to sustain a family over the long curve. When it comes to the searches that we're done. And I remember when we talk to you in Victoria way back when we recorded at she talked foot searches around the lake. A lot of people think that maybe Brian could have stumbled into the woods. And as for stomps, explain it's a tradition in the springtime that if there's a flood of buying could flow into the lake or he talked about how it's traditional that the lake floods. And so if he was hiding in the under her brush and died of hypothermia there or something, that he could have been carried into the lake, I think. But I don't think he wandered into the woods.

Firstly, if you've been to my first question is what woods? Yeah, that was weird thinking about you. There are no woods there. There's a marsh right towards the end lets which shows assuming the highway control overflew the area and they didn't see anything. They didn't see anybody lying in the in the in the marsh. And this was in wintertime, so the trees wouldn't have any leaves or anything. It would be easier than spot and the trees. There maybe one here, one there, but this business about walking into the trees makes absolutely no sense. There are no trees to speak of on people's lawns and such as that. And you know he certainly didn't crawl on somebody's lawn and hide out for two months dead and they didn't notice. And all so they had gods right of the of the body floating into the lake. Much rain fell during the period of December? True, twenty one in the middle of the winter. I mean no rainfall. You know, we had that melt right. How is it that you get floodwaters in the winter time? Well, there's no a rain right, we had a melting. That was it. You know, we had that mouth. But the question is, was there any and that you could probably find this out from JERIFFE. How many times they close the road, Chippawa road over there by the inlet? Yeah, they're good point and Brian Wade two hundred and fifty pounds. I know for a fact that that stream, during periods of heavy rain, will flood and they'll close the road. So there are to be a record of of the dates on which they close the road. So that will will support or refute the contention that his body was floated into the water in the middle of the winter time. Are you kidding me right now? If he was sledding, that's a whole different deal, but no, I mean that. That makes absolutely no sense to me. And again, all you have to do is look at what time of year was right. So, if he wasn't on the shoreline and where was he exactly? I want I hypopesize, and I think there's reason to believe this. They dumped the body somewhere and came back and likely a week later, and place the body into the inlet canal. There a witness statements we have, yeah, which is something we definitely want to cover later. I was listening. We were talking...

...about that a little bit last night, right. Oh, yeah, sure, yeah, what about so? So, just going back to you. I know it doesn't seem it seems kind of redundant, but did they do you know that they have search dogs? On the day Brian went missing, the sixteen out there by his card. They did not do any foot search at all. So no dogs out there either. Huh. Didn't believe he was there. Okay. Moreover, the Sheriff Bart are the Fire Department from searching the lake that day. Right. In fact, I heard second hand that one of the depts that if any you guys go into the lake, we're going to arrest you. Wow, of course. What's the basis for that? Defying their order do not go into the water. I'd say round Pail. I Guess Pol these guys are bad heavy and they create their own law. Right, certainly it's not constitutional, but that's how they operate. But if they could have gone, if he could have got out of his car, let's just go back to to appease the listeners here and stuff. If if he got out of his car and walked up towards the magical woods, which I would think most people would call them marsh, it was snowing the ground, you'd have footprints, right, I mean it shouldn't be hard. You would have a blood trail. We have bood true. Well, we do have footprints. It's look at the pictures in the BCI. They do not match what the boots that Brian was wearing. There's something else. I don't mean to jump around on you, but forts said all the footprints mash friend's boots. Know, they did not know. As you will know, you talked to the painter, right right. We talked. Yeah, yeah, and I'm sure he told you he saw like this size fourteen Texas, Geer kind of work boot, bloody footprint, right right. So there's a lie right there, gi you know, there's just so much there that. Yeah, it's he's hard to know, you know. And again I'm concerned about the shoes, concerned about the fact that they didn't find a motive, and I certainly have identified and which, of course, big God, apparently, which is okay, I don't care. Yeah, I mean the bottom line is Forrest Thompson did a press conference and he said nothing that we didn't already know. Well, we got no physical evidence, we got none of this. We don't know that, we don't know that, so we don't know anything. What a surprise? Yeah, well, nothing was done. I mean you, you did it all. I mean that's just that's the reality of it. You know, we're not trying to blow smoke up...

...her anything. I mean look, you hold the file and look at it yourself. Every you submitted everything, you cracked the laptop, you had all the eyewitness stuff, you have, you brought all these leads to them and they just chucked it up, saying we're good old boys club and we're not going to step on our sheriff buddies. They think it's a suicide and it looks good enough for me and they tuck it in their desk until forced finally decided, because you had a little bit of pressure, to pull it out and close it because he wants to get reelected because this election. Yeah, exactly. I mean that's exactly what happened. Everybody knows right. Well, done a lot of good work, it's said. You even going through the BCI file, like there's one where the cops are taking notes that you called them and think that you might be able to unlock the computer, and they're writing like the FBI had it, secret service had it, they can't do it, like who is this guy that's calling us? But you delivered on that. You have you do something that the Secret Service and all the egg heads at Quantico couldn't do, and so you have a ton of credibility. Tell me why do they think the scene was stage like? Why are they saying that there explamation was there was a water bottle sitting on a table that was not up that and I don't, I don't see what this means nothing to me. So in a crime scene every single thing needs to be destroyed. For you know who put the water bottle there. Easy been somebody who came in there after this scene was observed. So that means nothing unless they unless they fingerprinted the bottle and said well, Brian Fingerprinston here, and you know they didn't do that. Right. But beyond that, there was I'm told that there was a left hand hand print, play print on the wall. Well, if you did this yourself, why would you go put your hands on the wall? Makes no sense to me, you know right. So report. So I want to go back to the police and BCI and everyone saying that the crime scene looked like a stage crime scene, and I don't I don't want to get ahead of ourselves or ahead of you in the investigation, but could have put could it possibly be that the investigators that looked at it we're suffering from tunnel vision and that they were picturing a crime scene where it was some kind of crazy maniac that came in there on a stabbing frenzy, and this could have started out totally different direction. There could have been a time where, you know, we don't even know if this is the first crime scene right, like, here's what I was told, that the sheriff came on scene and said, yeah, she looks like a suicide to me, even before the body was found. Yeah, the very day of the on the date of the December sixteen. So they are ready already someone had made up their mind that this is going to be a suicide.

I'm telling you so, I mean so that that sets the stage for all that follow us. We know that state suicides do happen. I think they're much rarer, but typically the body is found right away, right like when you stay a suicide, you don't also hide your body, right. And the fact of the matter is, if he just wanted to kill himself, oh, why would he even have to leave or she was a painful and slow way to do it. Yeah, I mean, he could have gone it late in the ground behind the building. That's good if that was his intent, but here's here's a on the day before this happened, he talked to his buddy in New York and rearrange from travel plans. He was going to go to New York to visit his friend and he made these traveler arrangements, re arrangements the fourteen. So if he's contemplating suicide, as they would suggest, over a period of fe or four weeks, why would he even have done that? Makes no sense. Now you wouldn't have right. So so what? It cuts against the facts, but any we go ahead. So you've alluded to the idea that Brian wasn't that. Obviously you don't feel the the theory of Brian Getting out of his car and walking straight into the woods, to quote woods. They are correct. Correct. Let's look at this other issue. You have Taylor getting married about thirty and he sees a guy walking the other way by the lake. WHO's to say it isn't the same person? Right, because they never gave a description of the report. He said similar you know, similar description or some shit like that, but but the report doesn't specify. The Guy was worrying this, he was this tall, this, this heavy, you know all the kind of stuff. Correct things in there and Taylor's report, you know, gives us a guy in shorts, which we know Brian obviously wasn't in shorts, right, he was in jeans. That was now. So if we're going off, if we're using Taylor as the reference of what the clothes were, it does not match right. And that's what the jogger saw. To a guy in show that he's the thirty and he sees a guy walking the other way along the lake shore. So how do we know it is the same guy? I mean you would almost assume it was the same guy, right well, that he certainly wasn't just for the weather, right, right. So I guess I'm going to have to call that woman and brush that up a little bit, see just what you remembers. The same guy could have been. So yeah, so you know, they're facts. Nothing doesn't make sense now and if I was walking toward road, I guess it is. Where's the blood...

...trail? Well, any of the BCI photos that we saw from the scene there is no blood. There might be one print that kind of looks like the heel from Brian's boot and there are clearly totally different boot patterns all around that footprint. And we're not investigators and we've never claimed to be investigators, so we don't know by looking, we're just amateurs, if what bootprint was there first or not. But a very interesting thing that one of our listeners point out, because I posted just pictures of the snowy footprints in the boots. The backs of Brian's boots are completely free of any mud or debris whatsoever and it looks like they're maybe was kind of a drag mark in the snow. So some people are thinking that possibly Brian was dragged. There's pictures of it. Choose, right, Yep, right. Why would there be on the top? I've no idea unless someone and the tops to the seater dragged right right now. That night, though, it was pretty cool, right, so they wouldn't be. It would be mudern rose places. Right. Well, you think it's going to be? It's going to be on the soles of his shoes, right, if he's walking al the shoes are pretty clean. So if you walk into the marsh or wherever they hypothesize and lay down and die right. Anybody listening should go to our facebook as we do have pictures of the boots as they were recovered and they're part of the BCI file and you can see what we're talking about. Right. What I'm curious about, Paul, and if you're interested in disclosing it, what do you think your series of crime scenes was it? Do you think it started in the office, or do you think it started in the car? Do you think it started out in the parking lot? I think it started in the car at the town hall. That could explain some of the woods. Here's the other thing. Now let's let's look at there, and I'm going to put this picture up. They said it appears from the blood that he was seated in the driver's seat, but I've got pictures of the mold started going. Well, you can clearly see someone who's clothes were saturated with blood was sitting on the passenger seat. Wow, that's great. So there goes that theory right. So it appears to me that it appears possible that somebody drove the car and he was on the on the passenger seat, or whoever was on the passenger seat had blood on the seat of their pants. So the...

...stage crime scene could make more sense if if the crime have if it the assault happened in the car and maybe they went into the office for like a negotiation or something. Even allow them access to clean up right where. I could see them bringing them in there asking them where the money is or whatever in there. You know, the thing we also I think about here, is this wasn't a knife fight, right. I mean we don't. We don't have any reason to believe that Brian necessarily was in a knife fight. He could have been a gun point being tortured right. Well, that side of the car and things didn't go well. And they say they were no defensive wounds. Well, I would hypothesize that the cuts on the forearms or defensive loons, right. I mean I agree with you on Nold, your arm up to block the knife. Yeah, but they saw suicide the whole time. So they thought maybe some hesitation or trial marks maybe or something. They went into this thing thinking it was a suicide straight away, and I know that when they clearly met with them February, that was their belief right from the start. So they prejudged it. I guess that's what I'm saying. Yeah. So, so the bottom line is they're looking for facts that to support the theory rather than to develop facts leading to a theory. A difference, right there's a huge difference. Yeah, I don't know if you're willing to say this or not, but we know that you don't believe that it was suicide. You're not buying that. Are you closer to solving this, do you? Do you have leads at the authorities? Don't know about that. We can't talk about yet. Yes. Yes, but let me just say this, and this is obvious. Where's The gun? Where's this gun? Where's The gun? If this was a suicide, where's the gun, the gun that he told everyone he had shortly before he died? He had it, because I've talked to people who actually saw it. Okay, so this is not supposition. He had an it was a block. Are you going to say anything on the record about what you think the motive is or not yet? No, no, no, no, because, for station said there was no motive. But there's devote. Yeah, what I have found and learned? Yeah, so, but I need to exploit it. There's a green carry bag that's missing, that that Brian Historically held in this car and I leave that's where he kept his gun and he had a burner phone to and I'm that's gone. So someone took the carry bag with stuff in it. Now, was it the bad guys stole it? Could be, or did a share staffy gravage because they wanted to get the gun?...

It kind of comes down to the keys are locked in the car. They towed it to the Sheriff Impound Lot, whatever that is, and then you know who got the keys out? When did they get it out? With the bag in the car at that time, to somebody grab? You know, that's the issue there. You know, it's a the problem is you can't trust the police. It's that. You know, that's very true. That's the problem. Yeah, I mean if they were honest people, you say, well, obviously they stole it. You know, they're obviously these too, right. So it's it's a real mess. Well, I mean what you guys know my attitude toy that. I did find it interesting, though, that that the DCI guy put in the fact that I hold some animals against these good mother they well, they got that throughout. I mean they did care. They wanted the easy route and like even in your interview with you can tell that it's like, okay, we're appeasing you, but you know we're we've already like we're we're going to back our brothers. Basically, you know, there's the suicide. That's we got the case. Okay, let's just say that we did our due diligence. Okay. Well, then there's the issue of the missing emails. That's another issue. Yeah, that it has. Emails were wiped from right around the yeah, from the day before. They're the anything for that was deleted. And then Victoria called her, thea's on person, and they say well, yeah, they were more emails on the ID. Like to see those, the emails on the the computer. But if we get we have a really good lady who does did the forensic sports. If we can get the computer or when we get the computer in the phone, will ask her to look at it and looking specifically for specific issues. Right, right. I know that we made some inquiries of the DCI guy and he said, well, I don't know, have to go with the forensics guys. Well, I would think that as an investigator you would want to know what's in your forensics. So either way, you know, here's the bottom line. There are leads to be pursued and they will be pursued and we'll see where that takes us. And again, you know my opinion is, having done this for soon years, no case is unsolvable. You just gotta get the right you got to hit the right note. Tina, would you say, where's the where's the study? All walked into and we have during the winter months that he would have washed right. We really appreciate Paul coming on and talking to us and it...

...was very helpful to have him kind of pick apart some of the things that are in the bast here I report with us and talking to Paul like he's very confident that this was a murder right. He hasn't wait from that and he believes he could solve it. And there are some stuff that he's told us off the record that we just were not going to go into and we're not going to talk about. But I can tell you this that this isn't just delusional thinking. This isn't just Victoria macron unable to accept the fact that our husband committed suicide. This isn't just three guys that wanted to make a podcast and can't find anything else. Believe me, there's so many different cold cases and this case has been so hard and caused a lot of struss in all of our lives. It's become like a fulltime job. I would like, honestly, just to choose some other topic or talk to somebody that has a cold case book coming out, but we're staying with this because we believe in it too, and right absolutely. You know, it's been a crazy road. You know, you'd have asked any of us to say that we would get the report while we're doing this podcast. It's just, you know, it's crazy. I mean you can give credit wherever you feel like. It's do you know, but the reality is is the case is really evolving right now. We thought it was very important to get ahold of Paul, who submitted this stuff. You guys here. We're impartial to this case. Yeah, I mean if it turns out to be a suicide, will be the first to tell you that the suicide. But just talking to Paul and what he knows, what he knows about what was going on, it's different than what you think. I know a lot of people looking at a pipeline or other politicians that are local and something that. I don't think that's the right track at all. I think that we can you know, I mean it's I don't know if I'm quite there yet. But you know, it doesn't matter where we're at. We're giving you the information that we feel is pertinent to the case to paint the story of what happened. And then ultimately it's not solved. So you know. But what the crowdsourcing and everything has been a huge thing. We're going to continue to dig. We have got a plethora of information to go through now. You know, I've been logging some some pretty long hours just getting through all the stuff that the BCIS released it and it really does open up a lot of doors. I hope that you guys aren't thrown into towel yet because there's so much more to go. You know, we're going to continue to pump out the information nation to you guys and in ways that, you know, is easy for you guys to hear, and we just appreciate all the support through this. You know, we're just we're going to do what we feel is right and that's, you know, giving you guys the information. But by no means are we trying to slant this case to anything that it's that it's not in Paul I don't think is either. I mean you heard him. He doesn't have explanations for everything. This is okay. This is such an unusual case that we don't...

...have the answers to if we did, it was solved, but I think if we had enough people talking about it, I do think it will get solved and I do I do believe Paul and that he will solve it. He's just he's got the ability and he's got the desire and he's not given up. Guys, just stay tuned. There will be more updates coming. We're kind of moving now with the speed of the case. I think that there are more developments and I wouldn't be surprised one day if you wake up and there's an indictment in this case. However, in the meantime we're going to still be posting on facebook and we enjoy talking with you guys there. Keep putting your questions out there. We like the critical thinking that goes into it and we try to bring those ideas and objections to Paul to see what he has to say about it. We are also talking to the macan family. I don't know how much for the BCI file they want us to put out there. We chose to put some pictures of footprints in the snow and footwear because it didn't show any Gore or anything like that. We're not trying to sensationalize this or do anything that would harm the family. We want to be a help. We don't want to get in the way. We've said that all along. We are not slews or not even amateur sluice. We're not even really conspiracy theorists. Doesn't matter what the VECAN Gernal said. Where we're doing is just trying to get the people that have been there, the people that are investigated and anyone that will talk to have them tell you their story, and that's what we've been doing and we can't help the fact that it doesn't always coincide with the official line from the investigators. Absolutely, you know, I think that the reality that we really want to let you guys know is we're respectful people who respect the law enforcement, who respect people that have contributed to this and and that who haven't, and whatever we can do to paint this story to what it was is what we're trying to do here. Yeah, and you know, as a right now I don't even know if we we don't the podcasters don't have a suspect. We don't know who this could be, but I don't think it's probably very likely that it's anyone that we've discussed so far in the program or had on the PROBEC. I mean just by the pictures in the that we used to put online. It's hard to, you know, think that he acted alone when there's two sets of prints. YEA, the invisible ships podcast is produced by invisible ships productions and low see. All rights reserved. For more information go to www don't invisible ships pod gasp dotcom.

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