Invisible Ships podcast
Invisible Ships podcast

Episode · 9 months ago

Circleville Letters Part 2: Martin Yant Interview

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Martin Yant is the founder and lead private investigator at Ace Investigations a detective agency he founded after an award-winning career in journalism.
Martin Yant is probably best known for his work on the Innocence Project where he has amazingly helped free 23 people who were wrongly convicted.

But Martin Yant is also the man who brought the crazy case of the Circleville Letters to the mainstream when he was featured on Unsolved Mysteries. He is the leading authority on the case and has investigated it from the very beginning.

Does he think that Paul Freshour the man convicted of writing the letters is guilty? Find out when we sit down and discuss the Circleville Letters with Martin Yant.

 

It's time for the invisible ship's podcast, where we talk about everything from true crime to it truly weird. Weare back and we are talking more about the circleville letters and this episode,Danny, this is a big one. It is yeanwer day on the circlevilleletters. He did not to say entered that they're right. No, we'regoing to be interviewing our most famous guests ever, Martin Yant, who wasactually on the unsolved mysteries episode about the Circle Ville Letters. One of thethings that we're really going to be getting into today with Martin yet is whetheror not they have the right guy in prison for writing the letters. Youknow, Paul Fresh hour serve like twelve years in prison accused as the letterwriter, and Martinyenne is the perfect person to talk to you about this becauseone, no one, knows more about the case than he does. Ifirmly believe that into Martin Yeenne is a big advocate. He's a member ofthe innocence project and he's worked on overturning a lot of cases where people havebeen wrongfully incarcerated, and so what he has to say about this carries alot of weight and I can't wait to get into it. I mean he'sprobably like the primary source for the CIRCLEVILLE letters case. If you don't knowwhat we're talking about, please go back and listen to our last episode wherewe kind of give you an overview of the case. Yeah, we didsort of a concise timeline of the case and the timeline of events in ourlast episode. It's called CIRCLEVILLE letters part one. You could find that anapple podcast, spotify, anywhere you go to get your podcast, and wealso have a good timeline on our website that you put together, visible shipspodcastcom and not only just the timeline, but we have all the evidence,scans of the letters, photos from the accident at the police reports. Sowe're trying to make probably the world's best website on the circle letter well,and it's like we said in the last episode, that we're putting everything onthere because we want that's to be an access like a source that people canaccess to do their own investigations and all we ask your returns. Just letus know what you find out. We are really excited about some of thenew members and listeners that we have on the visible ships podcast, specially thepeople from Circleville because we really want to try to get a core of peoplethat live in that area because we're telling their story. This happened in theircommunity and their voices are important. And who knows? Dan like they mayknow people that receive letters that were the victims of the circle all letterator.Yeah, no, Circleville, Columbus, anyone in that area? Those wereall the locations that were key to this whole event, right. And youknow, we were in Circleville like a few weeks back and it's a coollittle place. I mean the downtown area is very cool. It's historic andthere's an interesting history just to the whole town too, because it was builton top of a circular Indian mound. You know, we got a pamphletfrom the historical society all about the founding of Circleville and everything like that.So Doan get the freaking pamphlet. Read it. Why? Circleville complements ofthe Pickway County Historical Society to sexed by Howard Jones. You don't need toread all of it. Three prominent citizens were selected to explore the land thatwould become pickway county. These men were David Bradford, George Jackson, andJohn Pollock. They traversed the territory and finally located the place for the countyseat and a densely wooded circular bit of land surrounded by an earthen wall.There were towns of several hundred inhabitants within a few miles of this place.No one knows why this committee selected the mound builders enclosure. The first writtenaccount of the circle and it's adjacent square is in the diary of David Jones, my tinerant preacher, who in one thousand seven hundred and sixty made ashort stay among the Shawnee Indians. Since his time, archeologists have described it, measured it and wondered as to its use. They were two concentric wallswith a moat between and closing the town site. The walls were about tenfeet high and the ditch about ten feet deep. The diameter of the outerwall, according to Caleb out at water, was sixty nine rods. The westernside of the square was tangent to the circle, with the gateway between. The square had only a single wall about ten feet high with eight openings, and each side measured fifty five rods. So it was sort of like maybea burial site or a sacred space.

So you build a town on topof Indian burial mounds sacred space. So you know there's could be someweird stuff in your future. You're kind of asking for trouble. So youknow what I was thinking like this would be a really good topic for likea future episode. We're going to put that in the hopper. But now, I mean seriously, Circleville is a cool place to visit. I wouldlove to go there and Halloween. It is slightly creepy yet and there arefamous for their pumpkin festival. It's really cool. When you drive in totown their water tower is a giant Pumpkin. Exactly. Yeah, they're known forit. They're known for it in school and if you love the fall, which if you're from Ohio, you pretty much love the fault, it'sgot to be a cool place to go. I did want to make one notefor historical accuracy. At this point in time, the town is nolonger circular shaped. They ended up squaring the circle at some time in theone eighteen hundreds. I think big mistake. That was a big mistake. It'sit seems like everyone regrets it. We already told you that Martin yetis the worldwide authority on the CIRCLEVILLE letters. He's also a former journalist, he'sthe president of Ace investigations and he's a big time advocate for those thatare wrongly incarcerated. All right, Darren, let's call Martin yet investigations. Hey, Marty, this is Darren. How are you all right? Howare you, Darren? I'm doing good. Are you okay to do this interview? Yeah, I think one thing I want to do is go backand get your original email, which I think has your information. Let meget your address, my home address. Hart, you want my home address? Yeah, my address is seven nine. So you know, that's a littlestrange. Usually we ask the questions, but we knew that Martin Yette wasgoing to be thorough and we were really excited to just get into theCIRCLEVILLE letters case and talk about that with him. Okay, I had achance to do some work on this this week and have reread the trial transcript. All right, continues to raise questions. Time I read through it I seesomething else. But how did you find out about the story begin with? So we explained to Martin that we became familiar with the Circleville case throughunsolved mysteries and the whatever remains podcast hosted by Marie Mayhew, and then wegot into more details in our interview with him. And then Martin warned usto the case as a strange way of pulling you in and not letting go. Yeah, it's fascinating and addictive. So be careful. Yeah, it'stoo late, I'm already in. Yeah, I think I have told you,Darren, that I had one private invest gator applied to me for ajob and we read my background. He got interested in the CIRCLEVILLE case.Then he called me back a few must later asked for a job update andthen he started to ask me questions about the circle bill letters because he gotinterested in them also and had been keeping up on things. So once it'dbite you, it's hard to get rid of. There's so much to thiscase, you know, it's kind of hard to like sort through it all. We've been working. I've been talking to Marie and she was able tosend us over all the stuff that she pulled. So we've been going throughlike the court case and the accident report and, you know, the theoriginal letders. So like one of the questions that I had was when youread online, everything says one thousand nine hundred and seventy six when it beginbut like the first letters that I can find are really seventy seven. Isit? Is it seventy seven? Then it started. That's fun. Apparentlyit started with Mary. I think she received her first letter in seventy seven. There are references to seventy six. I've seen that several other places.I have a timeline some researcher put together...

...and he starts the timeline one thousandnine hundred and seventy six beginning of vindictive letters sent to residents of circle.Bill. Thousands of letters would be sent over the years. Now that couldbe an exaggeration about how many letters were set, but there certainly were hundreds. Yeah, and in the fresh hour court case I saw where they madereference to a thousand letters. Yeah, that's what I think. Sure,IFF Radcliffe said Yeah, but there's not really a true account of how many. Now that is that what the police would have had, or is thatlike Great Radcliffe said that they had a thousand lips. Okay, but theyonly release the thirty nine we which became core exhibits. Yeah, is therea way to get ahold of them or is that like an ongoing so it'snot a close case. I think I tried, think other people have triedsubsequently, and they're gone. They wouldn't have any reason to keep them really, best as I can tell, they're gone. Okay. So when didyou start getting involved in the case? Well, I followed it. Iwas commentary editor at the columnist dispatch and a columnist, so I followed thetrial and in that period I was becoming more and more interested in wrongful convictionsnationally as well as locally, and we had a couple big wrongful conviction caseshere in Columbus in the mid e s that I wrote about. And thenI was given advanced copy of the very important film the Thin Blue Line,that was given to me by the mother of the suspect, of the suspect, grand old all Adams, and it showed very dramatically how he had beenframed for a murder in Texas and sentenced to death and that was very eyeopening to a lot of people. That got a lot of publicly publicity.I wrote a number of columns in articles about it and remain friends with Randalldel Adams after this release for a long time. So that that's when Istarted thinking there might be a book in this and during this same formative perioda reporter friend by the name of Robin Yocumb had a series of articles calledreasonable doubt and he wrote a story about the letter writers and how, eventhough Paul Fresh Haart been in prison for several years, that the letters werecontinuing to be mailed all over pickaway county and some to surrounding areas, andno one could figure out who was going at, although the sheriff of course, insisted that Paul fresh hour had had done it. I was interested inSheriff Radcliffe separately because I had really got me into the investigative side of journalismwas in one thousand nine hundred and seventy eight, as editor of the MansfieldNews Journal, I exposed great deal of corruption in the Richmond County Sheriff's Officethat ultimately led to the sheriff's conviction and along with seven of his deputies.And so back my mind I also had an idea about corrupt sheriffs, becauseeverywhere I look there was a corupt shriff being charged for something. And rightduring this Carriad Sheriff Radcliffe, I believe, was president of the National Sheriff's Associationand was believed to be the longest serving sheriff in an office at thattime. Who Generational with that family? Right? Yeah, it. Ithas until like the last year or two. It has been controlled by the family. It's except for like one four year break when Dwight radcliff's father diedafter serving something like thirty years. Then...

Dwight Radcliffe took over four years laterand he controlled it for about thirty or more years and then he gave itup to his son, who continued to have it for I think twelve yearsand he just pretty amazingly got defeated for when he ran for re election.But they had control that office for several decades and Scherre of D White Radcliffetreated it like a little fief them. And there are all kinds of signsof corruption and the types of things that I had found another corrupt sheriffs acrossthe country and being president of National Sheriffs Association did not impress me because rightaround that period the president of the National Sheriffs Association committed suicide after federal agentsraised to raided his office and found something like three hundred thousand dollars cash thathe had siphoned off finds or something. Wow. So being, you know, being President National Sheriffs and association isn't going to impress me a whole lot. Well, Martin and the letter writer are an agreement about Sheriff Radcliffe's corruption. The dates that Radcliffe was actually the NSA president were from one thousand ninehundred and eighty seven to nineteen eighty eight. So in one thousand nine hundred andseventy seven he wasn't actually president. So it's a very antiquated office thatshouldn't exist. It's a constant source of trouble in government and I think itshould be abolished. It's almost been abolished on the East Coast. Do youmean elected syrriff's should be honest. Okay, and it was at this point ofthe interview where we change gears and we wanted to know how Martin himselfgot so involved in the CIRCLEVILLE letters case. That's an interesting story. I wasfirst contacted by Paul fresh hours, then wife Marilyn, in one thousandnine hundred and ninety three, I believe. I think what I did is Iwrote a story or the Columbus Alternative newspaper, Columbus Alive, which atthat time did investigative journalism. But I did a big story on it atthat time and I got a few calls, including one threatening phone call, butthen that kind of died down. That story made us way to Marylandfresh hour Paul's wife, who called me and wanted to meet with me andshe gave me information and that told me maybe I should dig deeper and shewould give me which he had. So I started looking into it more andkept finding all kinds of oodities about it. But that started in ninety three.I wrote an article about it which caused as lobster. That was aboutit. You know, I'd get an occasional phone call or letter or something, but that's pretty much the way things were back then. You know thatthere wasn't any kind of massive reaction usually to a story. That all thatchange with the Internet. So going back though, so you got a threateningletter when you were trying to write this, threatening letter when the story appeared,and calling US alive. Well, somebody who had a particular complaint thatcaused me to think they knew something. They it was a call in themiddle of the night woke me up and it was a woman and she saidI read your story about Paul Fresh hour and I see you mentioned that andnow Camino was seen by the place where the sign was found. Don't evermention that L Camino again. And I said, I said, what's thebig deal? I said, I didn't say somebody had an El Camino,that Paul fresh hour and El Camino or anybody else. I didn't mention anynames, as street from the police report, which I think may have been withheld, but I said it's right from the police report. It's not somethingI made up. And she just said...

...just don't ever mention it again andhung up. So going to Ron's accident. So do you think that that Roncar accident was related to the letter writers? Like do you think hegot that letter or got that phone call that that got him out and waswrong talking to the person that was tormenting the family, the letter writer whenhe left the house? There's nothing in the police report in the fresh ourcakes that mentions that death and linking it in any way to the letters.Exactly what happened. And he said what is hard to say, but youknow sometimes I think that this was just a fanciful theory that kind of gotinto the narrative that Ron got a call from the letter writer, he figuredout who it was, decided to go confront the letter writer, just hisdaughter Goodbye and drove down the road and crashed and was killed. So Ijust reread the transcript and that narrative is in there. So that narrative hasbeen around to the point that apparently it was part of Mary Gillespie story thathe did get a call, he had reason to go out. He wastrying to locate the letter writer when he crashed. Who that person was onthe phone, I don't know. I'm going to try to reach the daughter. He supposed Zie gave a kiss goodbye and told her he'd be back shortly. But whether that exists or it's just a dramatic story that's been added,I can't tell you. The accident and self probably could have been better investigating. One thing that's of interest about Sheriff Radcliffe, and this the title ofmy book on Sheriff's is called Tim Star tires like he acted like a tyrantand it even mentions that the highway patrol complained that he would not allow thepatrol to investigate accidents in pickaway county that were on state highways. HMM,they normally investigate those. Most sheriffs welcome their investigation because they're far better andmore thorough. Back then at least, the state patrol couldn't investigate an accidentsin pickaway county without being invited in by the sheriff. So they did thisinvestigation themselves and I think, you know, that could be part of the problem. Everyone seems to be an agreement that the sheriff's department kind of droppedthe ball when it came to investigating wrong Gillespie's accident. The letter writer hasmaintained that Ron was murdered and a lot of other people kind of think thatthere was some foul plane involved to so we talked to Martin about why thatnarrative exists, why people think that this death on five points pike was sosuspicious. N Gillespie did take a gun with him or had a stored inhis pickup truck. That's unclear, but when he was found the gun wason the floor and it appeared that one bullet had been discharged. Yeah,I just read that police report. I'd said like that. The gun wasfound, I think, underneath him on the ground. And then, yeah, that there was there was a discharged round, but mean it's hard tosay when that round was discharged. Right, right. So the weird part isis looking on a map and looking...

...at where Ron would have left andto get to five points, like he definitely wasn't going to go on theopposite way of Circleville. You know, he was kind of going out tous where. I mean, what else would be out that way that youwould want to go? You know, at ten at night? It's allmysterious and bizarre. How much have a sinister I don't know. I'm goingto try to get some more answers. I originally tried to talk to EricAllspie. She would not talk to me. I try to talk to daughter andand at that time she would not talk to me. The only personwould talk to me from that side of the family was the oldest daughter gone. Okay, so I couldn't get much family information from their point of view. It's certainly appears to be, Mister mysterious, but he did have quitea bit of booze in a system, so it could have just been accident. Caused by alcohol. Everything that we see written about this, they makea point all the publications that Ron wasn't much of a drinker. Yeah,that's even what Paul's sisters still have told me recently, that they didn't knowhim to be a drinker. I don't want to get into personalities a wholelot, but let's just say heavy use of alcohol is not unusual in thatfamily and he had, I think, one six percent, so he waslike double over the limit and that's a good bit of alcohol. What thetruth there is? Perhaps this letter writer had just gotten into the upset thathe was drowning as sorrows and who's I think he was capable of more drinkingthan a lot of people want to say that he was. Do you thinkthat we can assume, if this was the call from the literator, thathe recognized that person's voice? I mean, that's what caused him to leave thehouse? Is that are might thinking too many leaps. That's the story. I don't know. I don't know if that call occurred. I don'tthink they tried to get incoming phone call records back then, which you could, but it was certainly a more cumbersome process and so we'll never know.Martin, proceeding the accident before Ron died, were the police really concerned about theseletters or is something they just assumed was not really even part of theirmandate to investigate? They were more of an irritant, you know. Someof them criticized the sheriff and then at some point, and I can't sayexactly for Paul Crush hour after, some of them started having a white powderin them which in some cases was determined to be arsneak. So somebody wasgetting pretty serious. Wow, that's a crazy he really wanted to do.Damn, it's not just upstarte. I said the whoever was sending that wantedto really do damage and hurt people, not just upset people. Yeah,it's all very concerning. If you read them all, or a lot ofthem at one time, you can't help but conclude that this is a prettysick person, very cruel, very crude. Like at one point it talks alot about Gordon Massey and very Gillespie happening to wear close pins on theirnoses because of all the poop and their...

...pants, and even now talk alot about poop, poopy pants and bizarre things like that that it just reallynot what you're thinking. Adult would be saying, even if they wanted tosay something pull they would come up with something better than poopy pants. Willyou bring me to something that I've been dying to ask you. I've beenreading through some of the letters, the ones that are available in the syntax, the structure of how this person's using language is so off. It's Igot the impression that maybe this person didn't speak English as a first language.I want to know what your take is on that. I don't know alot of the people contacted me over the years. Was a gradual assistant toa Georgetown linguist, forensic linguists, and they were going to try to analyzethe writing and see if they could make any kind of determination about who mayhave written the letters. And forncy Kling whist doesn't just look at the theshape and form of the letters, but also the language itself and the Syntaxas so I was kind of hopeful for that, but then the Grad studentdisappeared. As like some of the other things, I get contacted and somebodygoes a little further with it and then they give up and disappear. Butyou know, it would be nice to have it the letters more thoroughly analyze. You know, I know some very good handwriting analysts, not somebody who, you know, got a mail order certificate and they're quite often consulted allover the world. So they know their stuff, but they're not cheap.So and I've been doing this on a bare bones budget the particular interest init other than it's an intriguing mystery. But all that change to a certainextent after the Internet took off in two thousand. I hadn't really heard muchof anything about the letters since I wrote the first article in one thousand ninehundred and ninety three and after unsolved mysteries ran with it and then, youknow, there was a spark of interest and then it died down. Thenall of a sudden, right around two thousand, I start getting emails frompeople all over the country and in some cases all over the world, wantingto know more about the shirt pabil letter writer. And that's been kind ofa constant stream of inquiries since then and it got to the point that Ijust couldn't keep up with it. I have much more important cases to workon, death penalty cases that from from death honey cases down and but everytime I try to put it aside or turn down a podcast interview it kindof bounces back. And so they's been with me for almost thirty years.But the handwriting is very interesting. The Syntax is interesting. Some of thiscould have been delivered. A lot of it comes off as country boys andwhich could all be a ruse, but it's all very intriguing as well.Of the spellings, you know, or writing too. Is that a TWA'stalking about two weeks and you know fresh our has like what a master's degree, and I think he may have had two master's degrees. Actually, hewas out down me. He was no genius. His sisters helped him getthrough Grad School. Had Two sisters who...

...were very devoted to him. They'revery tightly knit family. So he was smart, but I think he wasmore book Smart Than Street Smart. So I guess like the question is iswhy? Why do you feel so strongly Paul was innocent when he admitted toSheriff Radcliffe for writing approximately forty, two hundred and fifty letters? Well,first of all, I'm not absolutely convinced that Paul was innocent. Okay,I think he was. I think he was wrongly convicted. He really gotrailroaded and trial the judge was very unfair. There were some bizarre occurrences that I'mgoing to have to check with some defense attorneys about, but some thingsthat were allowed in that I kind of think probably shouldn't have been. Andand then there's this one report that mentions two other bus drivers seeing some kindof vehicle right near the scene, right before all this happened, and there'sno mention of it at all. And in fact I just noticed last nightone of the two bus drivers who saw that, who saw them quite abit. It was called as a witness to verify just that. She wasdriving behind Mary that day and another bus as she saw Mary pull over,get out of her bus and go down and grab at this sign while shewas driving by. They didn't ask her anything about seeing a orange car,which she described as a Vega with the black with black covering the back endof it. Wasn't even asked that. You know, here's some strange characterright at the scene and they don't ask her about it. But then thesecond person gave a much better description, described it as an yellow orny ororange El Camino and said that a large man was standing outside and he turnedaway when she was driving by, acting like he had to go to thebathroom or something, and there was something covered in a tarp in the backof the El Camino. HMM, and that was never mentioned in court.Paul seemed not to know anything about it when I brought it to his attention. So I have a feeling one are both of these sightings. They havebeen with help from the defense. So with so Paul at this point wasgoing through a pretty messy divorce with his will. Then at ex wife Karen. That whole timeline is very intriguing. She left him, I believe,in August of eighty two. Paul filed for divorce on October twenty eight,than ueen eighty two. Then, I think even after he filed, thesign started popping up with more frequency, and then the booby trap appeared onFebruary seventh, one thousand nine hundred and eighty three. So all within athree four month period. Thanks really went south to Paul Right and then so. So Paul's The gun that he purchased from his coworker was in the box. But my question is is where was...

Paul Living? In reference to Karenat. So they were. They were separate. Paw at his own houseor did he maintained the house in the divorce? He was saying the maritalproperty, and he got the marital property in the divorce. He did verywell in the divorce. That all change, course, after he got convicted.He got the house, he got custody of the kids and so shelost pretty significantly. Coincidentally, everything escalates, right they as the signs escalate,and then this this attempt on. By the end she had the holidayhills property, had custody of the children, of course, and I think hadgotten a good portion of his pension. So there's a lot of motive.Huh, you could say that. So I guess, like the question, like reading through the court documents, you know, like the box matchedAmheuser Bush's box and his gun was purchased, you know, so like from ayou know. So, I mean everything kind of resembles that in thenthe yeah, the chalk. I mean everything kind of resembles where it allkind of came from. Something like stuff pulled from that house. Is thatwhat you kind of were coming to a conclusion with? Somebody acts if Pauldidn't do it. Somebody access that house to get the stuff to put ittogether correct. Interesting they're there were so interactions and if you look, firstof all Paul said he never admitted to the sheriff. Study wrote letters andthere's no recordings of these interviews. But when Paul was asked about the gun, was confronted that the gun into booby trap was his is response supposedly wasI take full responsibility for the gun. Very odd reaction, you know.It wasn't yeah, it's my gun, I did this, you got me. It was I take full responsibility for the gun. And he made asimilar remark later that he did not want to talk about the gun. Nowpointing to several witnesses, one of whom I got a statement from ten yearslater. The reason he didn't want to talk about the gun is he suspectedthat his son Mark had stolen it. I read something about that that hewas trying to protect like his child possibly, and he told us one neighbor hesaid, I don't want to drag him into this, but he wouldhave stoled it. So if we go down that road, he would havestole it for Karen Sue Right. That would be the theory. There would. Yeah, I do have one witness who were hoping to interview soon who'sbeen very ill with the flu, but not not the coronavirus, the otherflu apparently can really knock you for a loop. To absolutely, but shewas very close to the family and she said Mark told her that he stolethe gun and he so she said she told Mark and Mark said just letit go. Interesting. That's a that's a big deal. So that,yeah, that it kind of could explain the gun. And that would changeeverything, Martin, because that would mean that the motive for the sign wasto change the outcome of a divorce and...

...had really nothing to do with MaryGillespie at all other than the fact that they needed to use her to framePaul fresh out the right right. Well, what this person believes, and againshe's very close to the whole family, was that when sue left the maritalproperty, she moved into a trailer home on Mary Gillespie's property right sothere was more interaction they're oddly enough, Mary Gillespie had just kicked out terence, whose parents. That's that's what I thought. Yeah, and but thenshe allowed Karen Sue to move in and supposedly, somehow, according to thisperson, not this is not me, got convinced, Mary that Paul wasthe letter writer and devised a scheme to is, to you know, exposehim. The booby trap interesting. So I'm not saying that's true. BullRight. If you look at it, that's all plausible. It does andmakes it makes really good sense. So with that, then that means thatMary, because it's so weird, like you pulled this box down with stringattached to it and she didn't really think of anything. She just put iton her bus. Then what and picked up elementary children. Think about doingthat today, you know, but you know, and then at the enddecides that then just look into it and then finds this gun. It doesn'teven think it's the gun and then just conveniently brings it down to the youknow, the sheriff's Office. Right, her actions were somewhat obvious, acurious but this again, I find this quite often when I'm reading old casefiles or novels or something. You know, my first reaction is get out yourcell phone and make a call. They're there were no cell phones inone thousand nine hundred and eighty two, or there may have been some experimentalones, but there were no commercial cell phones and so and she was outin the country, although she could have gone just to a neighbor's house andsaid please call the police. She also just thought our CB on her busright. So couldn't you have cause see me? She was already running lateand maybe she just felt pressed that she had to go on. As theother driver said, it was three o'clock, because she remembered looking at her clock, because they were supposed to be at the other school at three o'clockto pick up the kids. So they were a few minutes late. Dowe know what the sign said that got her to go to the booby trip? Yeah, it accused her daughter Tracy Sucking Massey's Peter. Wow, what'sthe word used, which is not in common vernacular anymore? Defense attorney claimedthat there was no finger prints down on that gun whatsoever. You know anythingabout that? I think that's true. That's not uncommon. People think thatif a guns been used they're going to be able to get fingerprints off thegun and identify the person. Quite often there are no fingerprints found on agun. For one part one thing. A good part of them are ridged. The handle usually is ridge and there's only a small a few small placeswhere you could leave a good fingerprint. So that's not uncommon. So GordonMassy, so he is like everybody goes...

...with. Mary is being in cheatwas involved a lot, but everything points back to like Gordon Massey being thisterrible superintendent in a way sleeping around with tons of women. What what doyou know about the thing? Is the original letters standing to be very angryat Gordon Massey not married the Espie. Yeah, they just show some realanger toward Massey and then slowly they turned to focus on Mary as the weaklink to maybe stop the affair by stopping her. So she was targets,a week link. I remember in one of the early letters he even saysthat he needs to find one of the weaker bus drivers and get her tostop it. So yeah, so they picked Mary, maybe because she hadchildren or something like that. What do you think? Well, I thinkthere probably wasn't a fair going on, but you know, the person wantedto let massy known that it was going to be exposed if it didn't stop, but it apparently didn't face him at all. What do you think?Why do you think the writer cared so much about what Gordon Massey was doingor the ongoings at the school? I have no idea. It's it's partof the mystery. You know why? Why so angry? Why so relentless? You know there have been there's been speculation that it was Bassi's son whowas the letter writer and or his wife. But be a lot easier for hiswife just to file for divorce, you would think. Are I mean, like you know, they even like the return address on several of thoseletters are right to Gordon matcy's home. It's just a ploy, though,but I mean if you were living there, you wouldn't think you put it rightright. So that's that's one of the mysteries. But initially the letterswere pretty angry at Gordon Massey more than Mary. Mary was more of avictim. We've been pressured into an affair, and but then the towne change moreand more toward Mary, perhaps because the up she was taking no stepsto end the affair, apparently. And but then I just started focusing moreand more and got more threatening and badinating mash he ended up being the footnotemore than marrying. Hey, guys, that's it for this show. Butwe got much, much more coming up about the CIRCLEVILLE letters, more excitinginterviews with Michael Preeley, Mariemay who. We even have more from Martin yetand we will be bringing that to you. then. We also found our ownpeople down a circle bill that experiences with the letter writer and we're goingto be giving you their story to so make sure that you're subscriber to theshow. If you're not already subscribe anywhere where you get your podcast. Followus on twitter, go to our facebook. We love interacting with you guys andwant to hear your tips, in your theories. Also, just ageneral call. If any of you guys are listening, our forensic linguists,we want you to look at these letters or if your have a background handwriteanalysis, to go to our web page, ww dot invisible ships podcastcom about allthe letters, the handwritting samples, everything. I want you guys thelook at these and give us your theories, your feedback. Again, we justwe want to know what you think. This show maybe we produced anyway withoutthe mission write invisible ship's productions and they'll see, as my nephew Parkersays, down next time Shitmates,.

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