Invisible Ships podcast
Invisible Ships podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

Circleville Letters Part 2: Martin Yant Interview

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Martin Yant is the founder and lead private investigator at Ace Investigations a detective agency he founded after an award-winning career in journalism.
Martin Yant is probably best known for his work on the Innocence Project where he has amazingly helped free 23 people who were wrongly convicted.

But Martin Yant is also the man who brought the crazy case of the Circleville Letters to the mainstream when he was featured on Unsolved Mysteries. He is the leading authority on the case and has investigated it from the very beginning.

Does he think that Paul Freshour the man convicted of writing the letters is guilty? Find out when we sit down and discuss the Circleville Letters with Martin Yant.

 

It's time for the invisible ship's podcast, where we talk about everything from true crime to it truly weird. We are back and we are talking more about the circleville letters and this episode, Danny, this is a big one. It is yeanwer day on the circleville letters. He did not to say entered that they're right. No, we're going to be interviewing our most famous guests ever, Martin Yant, who was actually on the unsolved mysteries episode about the Circle Ville Letters. One of the things that we're really going to be getting into today with Martin yet is whether or not they have the right guy in prison for writing the letters. You know, Paul Fresh hour serve like twelve years in prison accused as the letter writer, and Martinyenne is the perfect person to talk to you about this because one, no one, knows more about the case than he does. I firmly believe that into Martin Yeenne is a big advocate. He's a member of the innocence project and he's worked on overturning a lot of cases where people have been wrongfully incarcerated, and so what he has to say about this carries a lot of weight and I can't wait to get into it. I mean he's probably like the primary source for the CIRCLEVILLE letters case. If you don't know what we're talking about, please go back and listen to our last episode where we kind of give you an overview of the case. Yeah, we did sort of a concise timeline of the case and the timeline of events in our last episode. It's called CIRCLEVILLE letters part one. You could find that an apple podcast, spotify, anywhere you go to get your podcast, and we also have a good timeline on our website that you put together, visible ships podcastcom and not only just the timeline, but we have all the evidence, scans of the letters, photos from the accident at the police reports. So we're trying to make probably the world's best website on the circle letter well, and it's like we said in the last episode, that we're putting everything on there because we want that's to be an access like a source that people can access to do their own investigations and all we ask your returns. Just let us know what you find out. We are really excited about some of the new members and listeners that we have on the visible ships podcast, specially the people from Circleville because we really want to try to get a core of people that live in that area because we're telling their story. This happened in their community and their voices are important. And who knows? Dan like they may know people that receive letters that were the victims of the circle all letterator. Yeah, no, Circleville, Columbus, anyone in that area? Those were all the locations that were key to this whole event, right. And you know, we were in Circleville like a few weeks back and it's a cool little place. I mean the downtown area is very cool. It's historic and there's an interesting history just to the whole town too, because it was built on top of a circular Indian mound. You know, we got a pamphlet from the historical society all about the founding of Circleville and everything like that. So Doan get the freaking pamphlet. Read it. Why? Circleville complements of the Pickway County Historical Society to sexed by Howard Jones. You don't need to read all of it. Three prominent citizens were selected to explore the land that would become pickway county. These men were David Bradford, George Jackson, and John Pollock. They traversed the territory and finally located the place for the county seat and a densely wooded circular bit of land surrounded by an earthen wall. There were towns of several hundred inhabitants within a few miles of this place. No one knows why this committee selected the mound builders enclosure. The first written account of the circle and it's adjacent square is in the diary of David Jones, my tinerant preacher, who in one thousand seven hundred and sixty made a short stay among the Shawnee Indians. Since his time, archeologists have described it, measured it and wondered as to its use. They were two concentric walls with a moat between and closing the town site. The walls were about ten feet high and the ditch about ten feet deep. The diameter of the outer wall, according to Caleb out at water, was sixty nine rods. The western side of the square was tangent to the circle, with the gateway between. The square had only a single wall about ten feet high with eight openings, and each side measured fifty five rods. So it was sort of like maybe a burial site or a sacred space.

So you build a town on top of Indian burial mounds sacred space. So you know there's could be some weird stuff in your future. You're kind of asking for trouble. So you know what I was thinking like this would be a really good topic for like a future episode. We're going to put that in the hopper. But now, I mean seriously, Circleville is a cool place to visit. I would love to go there and Halloween. It is slightly creepy yet and there are famous for their pumpkin festival. It's really cool. When you drive in to town their water tower is a giant Pumpkin. Exactly. Yeah, they're known for it. They're known for it in school and if you love the fall, which if you're from Ohio, you pretty much love the fault, it's got to be a cool place to go. I did want to make one note for historical accuracy. At this point in time, the town is no longer circular shaped. They ended up squaring the circle at some time in the one eighteen hundreds. I think big mistake. That was a big mistake. It's it seems like everyone regrets it. We already told you that Martin yet is the worldwide authority on the CIRCLEVILLE letters. He's also a former journalist, he's the president of Ace investigations and he's a big time advocate for those that are wrongly incarcerated. All right, Darren, let's call Martin yet investigations. Hey, Marty, this is Darren. How are you all right? How are you, Darren? I'm doing good. Are you okay to do this interview? Yeah, I think one thing I want to do is go back and get your original email, which I think has your information. Let me get your address, my home address. Hart, you want my home address? Yeah, my address is seven nine. So you know, that's a little strange. Usually we ask the questions, but we knew that Martin Yette was going to be thorough and we were really excited to just get into the CIRCLEVILLE letters case and talk about that with him. Okay, I had a chance to do some work on this this week and have reread the trial transcript. All right, continues to raise questions. Time I read through it I see something else. But how did you find out about the story begin with? So we explained to Martin that we became familiar with the Circleville case through unsolved mysteries and the whatever remains podcast hosted by Marie Mayhew, and then we got into more details in our interview with him. And then Martin warned us to the case as a strange way of pulling you in and not letting go. Yeah, it's fascinating and addictive. So be careful. Yeah, it's too late, I'm already in. Yeah, I think I have told you, Darren, that I had one private invest gator applied to me for a job and we read my background. He got interested in the CIRCLEVILLE case. Then he called me back a few must later asked for a job update and then he started to ask me questions about the circle bill letters because he got interested in them also and had been keeping up on things. So once it'd bite you, it's hard to get rid of. There's so much to this case, you know, it's kind of hard to like sort through it all. We've been working. I've been talking to Marie and she was able to send us over all the stuff that she pulled. So we've been going through like the court case and the accident report and, you know, the the original letders. So like one of the questions that I had was when you read online, everything says one thousand nine hundred and seventy six when it begin but like the first letters that I can find are really seventy seven. Is it? Is it seventy seven? Then it started. That's fun. Apparently it started with Mary. I think she received her first letter in seventy seven. There are references to seventy six. I've seen that several other places. I have a timeline some researcher put together...

...and he starts the timeline one thousand nine hundred and seventy six beginning of vindictive letters sent to residents of circle. Bill. Thousands of letters would be sent over the years. Now that could be an exaggeration about how many letters were set, but there certainly were hundreds. Yeah, and in the fresh hour court case I saw where they made reference to a thousand letters. Yeah, that's what I think. Sure, IFF Radcliffe said Yeah, but there's not really a true account of how many. Now that is that what the police would have had, or is that like Great Radcliffe said that they had a thousand lips. Okay, but they only release the thirty nine we which became core exhibits. Yeah, is there a way to get ahold of them or is that like an ongoing so it's not a close case. I think I tried, think other people have tried subsequently, and they're gone. They wouldn't have any reason to keep them really, best as I can tell, they're gone. Okay. So when did you start getting involved in the case? Well, I followed it. I was commentary editor at the columnist dispatch and a columnist, so I followed the trial and in that period I was becoming more and more interested in wrongful convictions nationally as well as locally, and we had a couple big wrongful conviction cases here in Columbus in the mid e s that I wrote about. And then I was given advanced copy of the very important film the Thin Blue Line, that was given to me by the mother of the suspect, of the suspect, grand old all Adams, and it showed very dramatically how he had been framed for a murder in Texas and sentenced to death and that was very eye opening to a lot of people. That got a lot of publicly publicity. I wrote a number of columns in articles about it and remain friends with Randall del Adams after this release for a long time. So that that's when I started thinking there might be a book in this and during this same formative period a reporter friend by the name of Robin Yocumb had a series of articles called reasonable doubt and he wrote a story about the letter writers and how, even though Paul Fresh Haart been in prison for several years, that the letters were continuing to be mailed all over pickaway county and some to surrounding areas, and no one could figure out who was going at, although the sheriff of course, insisted that Paul fresh hour had had done it. I was interested in Sheriff Radcliffe separately because I had really got me into the investigative side of journalism was in one thousand nine hundred and seventy eight, as editor of the Mansfield News Journal, I exposed great deal of corruption in the Richmond County Sheriff's Office that ultimately led to the sheriff's conviction and along with seven of his deputies. And so back my mind I also had an idea about corrupt sheriffs, because everywhere I look there was a corupt shriff being charged for something. And right during this Carriad Sheriff Radcliffe, I believe, was president of the National Sheriff's Association and was believed to be the longest serving sheriff in an office at that time. Who Generational with that family? Right? Yeah, it. It has until like the last year or two. It has been controlled by the family. It's except for like one four year break when Dwight radcliff's father died after serving something like thirty years. Then...

Dwight Radcliffe took over four years later and he controlled it for about thirty or more years and then he gave it up to his son, who continued to have it for I think twelve years and he just pretty amazingly got defeated for when he ran for re election. But they had control that office for several decades and Scherre of D White Radcliffe treated it like a little fief them. And there are all kinds of signs of corruption and the types of things that I had found another corrupt sheriffs across the country and being president of National Sheriffs Association did not impress me because right around that period the president of the National Sheriffs Association committed suicide after federal agents raised to raided his office and found something like three hundred thousand dollars cash that he had siphoned off finds or something. Wow. So being, you know, being President National Sheriffs and association isn't going to impress me a whole lot. Well, Martin and the letter writer are an agreement about Sheriff Radcliffe's corruption. The dates that Radcliffe was actually the NSA president were from one thousand nine hundred and eighty seven to nineteen eighty eight. So in one thousand nine hundred and seventy seven he wasn't actually president. So it's a very antiquated office that shouldn't exist. It's a constant source of trouble in government and I think it should be abolished. It's almost been abolished on the East Coast. Do you mean elected syrriff's should be honest. Okay, and it was at this point of the interview where we change gears and we wanted to know how Martin himself got so involved in the CIRCLEVILLE letters case. That's an interesting story. I was first contacted by Paul fresh hours, then wife Marilyn, in one thousand nine hundred and ninety three, I believe. I think what I did is I wrote a story or the Columbus Alternative newspaper, Columbus Alive, which at that time did investigative journalism. But I did a big story on it at that time and I got a few calls, including one threatening phone call, but then that kind of died down. That story made us way to Maryland fresh hour Paul's wife, who called me and wanted to meet with me and she gave me information and that told me maybe I should dig deeper and she would give me which he had. So I started looking into it more and kept finding all kinds of oodities about it. But that started in ninety three. I wrote an article about it which caused as lobster. That was about it. You know, I'd get an occasional phone call or letter or something, but that's pretty much the way things were back then. You know that there wasn't any kind of massive reaction usually to a story. That all that change with the Internet. So going back though, so you got a threatening letter when you were trying to write this, threatening letter when the story appeared, and calling US alive. Well, somebody who had a particular complaint that caused me to think they knew something. They it was a call in the middle of the night woke me up and it was a woman and she said I read your story about Paul Fresh hour and I see you mentioned that and now Camino was seen by the place where the sign was found. Don't ever mention that L Camino again. And I said, I said, what's the big deal? I said, I didn't say somebody had an El Camino, that Paul fresh hour and El Camino or anybody else. I didn't mention any names, as street from the police report, which I think may have been withheld, but I said it's right from the police report. It's not something I made up. And she just said...

...just don't ever mention it again and hung up. So going to Ron's accident. So do you think that that Ron car accident was related to the letter writers? Like do you think he got that letter or got that phone call that that got him out and was wrong talking to the person that was tormenting the family, the letter writer when he left the house? There's nothing in the police report in the fresh our cakes that mentions that death and linking it in any way to the letters. Exactly what happened. And he said what is hard to say, but you know sometimes I think that this was just a fanciful theory that kind of got into the narrative that Ron got a call from the letter writer, he figured out who it was, decided to go confront the letter writer, just his daughter Goodbye and drove down the road and crashed and was killed. So I just reread the transcript and that narrative is in there. So that narrative has been around to the point that apparently it was part of Mary Gillespie story that he did get a call, he had reason to go out. He was trying to locate the letter writer when he crashed. Who that person was on the phone, I don't know. I'm going to try to reach the daughter. He supposed Zie gave a kiss goodbye and told her he'd be back shortly. But whether that exists or it's just a dramatic story that's been added, I can't tell you. The accident and self probably could have been better investigating. One thing that's of interest about Sheriff Radcliffe, and this the title of my book on Sheriff's is called Tim Star tires like he acted like a tyrant and it even mentions that the highway patrol complained that he would not allow the patrol to investigate accidents in pickaway county that were on state highways. HMM, they normally investigate those. Most sheriffs welcome their investigation because they're far better and more thorough. Back then at least, the state patrol couldn't investigate an accidents in pickaway county without being invited in by the sheriff. So they did this investigation themselves and I think, you know, that could be part of the problem. Everyone seems to be an agreement that the sheriff's department kind of dropped the ball when it came to investigating wrong Gillespie's accident. The letter writer has maintained that Ron was murdered and a lot of other people kind of think that there was some foul plane involved to so we talked to Martin about why that narrative exists, why people think that this death on five points pike was so suspicious. N Gillespie did take a gun with him or had a stored in his pickup truck. That's unclear, but when he was found the gun was on the floor and it appeared that one bullet had been discharged. Yeah, I just read that police report. I'd said like that. The gun was found, I think, underneath him on the ground. And then, yeah, that there was there was a discharged round, but mean it's hard to say when that round was discharged. Right, right. So the weird part is is looking on a map and looking...

...at where Ron would have left and to get to five points, like he definitely wasn't going to go on the opposite way of Circleville. You know, he was kind of going out to us where. I mean, what else would be out that way that you would want to go? You know, at ten at night? It's all mysterious and bizarre. How much have a sinister I don't know. I'm going to try to get some more answers. I originally tried to talk to Eric Allspie. She would not talk to me. I try to talk to daughter and and at that time she would not talk to me. The only person would talk to me from that side of the family was the oldest daughter gone. Okay, so I couldn't get much family information from their point of view. It's certainly appears to be, Mister mysterious, but he did have quite a bit of booze in a system, so it could have just been accident. Caused by alcohol. Everything that we see written about this, they make a point all the publications that Ron wasn't much of a drinker. Yeah, that's even what Paul's sisters still have told me recently, that they didn't know him to be a drinker. I don't want to get into personalities a whole lot, but let's just say heavy use of alcohol is not unusual in that family and he had, I think, one six percent, so he was like double over the limit and that's a good bit of alcohol. What the truth there is? Perhaps this letter writer had just gotten into the upset that he was drowning as sorrows and who's I think he was capable of more drinking than a lot of people want to say that he was. Do you think that we can assume, if this was the call from the literator, that he recognized that person's voice? I mean, that's what caused him to leave the house? Is that are might thinking too many leaps. That's the story. I don't know. I don't know if that call occurred. I don't think they tried to get incoming phone call records back then, which you could, but it was certainly a more cumbersome process and so we'll never know. Martin, proceeding the accident before Ron died, were the police really concerned about these letters or is something they just assumed was not really even part of their mandate to investigate? They were more of an irritant, you know. Some of them criticized the sheriff and then at some point, and I can't say exactly for Paul Crush hour after, some of them started having a white powder in them which in some cases was determined to be arsneak. So somebody was getting pretty serious. Wow, that's a crazy he really wanted to do. Damn, it's not just upstarte. I said the whoever was sending that wanted to really do damage and hurt people, not just upset people. Yeah, it's all very concerning. If you read them all, or a lot of them at one time, you can't help but conclude that this is a pretty sick person, very cruel, very crude. Like at one point it talks a lot about Gordon Massey and very Gillespie happening to wear close pins on their noses because of all the poop and their...

...pants, and even now talk a lot about poop, poopy pants and bizarre things like that that it just really not what you're thinking. Adult would be saying, even if they wanted to say something pull they would come up with something better than poopy pants. Will you bring me to something that I've been dying to ask you. I've been reading through some of the letters, the ones that are available in the syntax, the structure of how this person's using language is so off. It's I got the impression that maybe this person didn't speak English as a first language. I want to know what your take is on that. I don't know a lot of the people contacted me over the years. Was a gradual assistant to a Georgetown linguist, forensic linguists, and they were going to try to analyze the writing and see if they could make any kind of determination about who may have written the letters. And forncy Kling whist doesn't just look at the the shape and form of the letters, but also the language itself and the Syntax as so I was kind of hopeful for that, but then the Grad student disappeared. As like some of the other things, I get contacted and somebody goes a little further with it and then they give up and disappear. But you know, it would be nice to have it the letters more thoroughly analyze. You know, I know some very good handwriting analysts, not somebody who, you know, got a mail order certificate and they're quite often consulted all over the world. So they know their stuff, but they're not cheap. So and I've been doing this on a bare bones budget the particular interest in it other than it's an intriguing mystery. But all that change to a certain extent after the Internet took off in two thousand. I hadn't really heard much of anything about the letters since I wrote the first article in one thousand nine hundred and ninety three and after unsolved mysteries ran with it and then, you know, there was a spark of interest and then it died down. Then all of a sudden, right around two thousand, I start getting emails from people all over the country and in some cases all over the world, wanting to know more about the shirt pabil letter writer. And that's been kind of a constant stream of inquiries since then and it got to the point that I just couldn't keep up with it. I have much more important cases to work on, death penalty cases that from from death honey cases down and but every time I try to put it aside or turn down a podcast interview it kind of bounces back. And so they's been with me for almost thirty years. But the handwriting is very interesting. The Syntax is interesting. Some of this could have been delivered. A lot of it comes off as country boys and which could all be a ruse, but it's all very intriguing as well. Of the spellings, you know, or writing too. Is that a TWA's talking about two weeks and you know fresh our has like what a master's degree, and I think he may have had two master's degrees. Actually, he was out down me. He was no genius. His sisters helped him get through Grad School. Had Two sisters who...

...were very devoted to him. They're very tightly knit family. So he was smart, but I think he was more book Smart Than Street Smart. So I guess like the question is is why? Why do you feel so strongly Paul was innocent when he admitted to Sheriff Radcliffe for writing approximately forty, two hundred and fifty letters? Well, first of all, I'm not absolutely convinced that Paul was innocent. Okay, I think he was. I think he was wrongly convicted. He really got railroaded and trial the judge was very unfair. There were some bizarre occurrences that I'm going to have to check with some defense attorneys about, but some things that were allowed in that I kind of think probably shouldn't have been. And and then there's this one report that mentions two other bus drivers seeing some kind of vehicle right near the scene, right before all this happened, and there's no mention of it at all. And in fact I just noticed last night one of the two bus drivers who saw that, who saw them quite a bit. It was called as a witness to verify just that. She was driving behind Mary that day and another bus as she saw Mary pull over, get out of her bus and go down and grab at this sign while she was driving by. They didn't ask her anything about seeing a orange car, which she described as a Vega with the black with black covering the back end of it. Wasn't even asked that. You know, here's some strange character right at the scene and they don't ask her about it. But then the second person gave a much better description, described it as an yellow orny or orange El Camino and said that a large man was standing outside and he turned away when she was driving by, acting like he had to go to the bathroom or something, and there was something covered in a tarp in the back of the El Camino. HMM, and that was never mentioned in court. Paul seemed not to know anything about it when I brought it to his attention. So I have a feeling one are both of these sightings. They have been with help from the defense. So with so Paul at this point was going through a pretty messy divorce with his will. Then at ex wife Karen. That whole timeline is very intriguing. She left him, I believe, in August of eighty two. Paul filed for divorce on October twenty eight, than ueen eighty two. Then, I think even after he filed, the sign started popping up with more frequency, and then the booby trap appeared on February seventh, one thousand nine hundred and eighty three. So all within a three four month period. Thanks really went south to Paul Right and then so. So Paul's The gun that he purchased from his coworker was in the box. But my question is is where was...

Paul Living? In reference to Karen at. So they were. They were separate. Paw at his own house or did he maintained the house in the divorce? He was saying the marital property, and he got the marital property in the divorce. He did very well in the divorce. That all change, course, after he got convicted. He got the house, he got custody of the kids and so she lost pretty significantly. Coincidentally, everything escalates, right they as the signs escalate, and then this this attempt on. By the end she had the holiday hills property, had custody of the children, of course, and I think had gotten a good portion of his pension. So there's a lot of motive. Huh, you could say that. So I guess, like the question, like reading through the court documents, you know, like the box matched Amheuser Bush's box and his gun was purchased, you know, so like from a you know. So, I mean everything kind of resembles that in then the yeah, the chalk. I mean everything kind of resembles where it all kind of came from. Something like stuff pulled from that house. Is that what you kind of were coming to a conclusion with? Somebody acts if Paul didn't do it. Somebody access that house to get the stuff to put it together correct. Interesting they're there were so interactions and if you look, first of all Paul said he never admitted to the sheriff. Study wrote letters and there's no recordings of these interviews. But when Paul was asked about the gun, was confronted that the gun into booby trap was his is response supposedly was I take full responsibility for the gun. Very odd reaction, you know. It wasn't yeah, it's my gun, I did this, you got me. It was I take full responsibility for the gun. And he made a similar remark later that he did not want to talk about the gun. Now pointing to several witnesses, one of whom I got a statement from ten years later. The reason he didn't want to talk about the gun is he suspected that his son Mark had stolen it. I read something about that that he was trying to protect like his child possibly, and he told us one neighbor he said, I don't want to drag him into this, but he would have stoled it. So if we go down that road, he would have stole it for Karen Sue Right. That would be the theory. There would. Yeah, I do have one witness who were hoping to interview soon who's been very ill with the flu, but not not the coronavirus, the other flu apparently can really knock you for a loop. To absolutely, but she was very close to the family and she said Mark told her that he stole the gun and he so she said she told Mark and Mark said just let it go. Interesting. That's a that's a big deal. So that, yeah, that it kind of could explain the gun. And that would change everything, Martin, because that would mean that the motive for the sign was to change the outcome of a divorce and...

...had really nothing to do with Mary Gillespie at all other than the fact that they needed to use her to frame Paul fresh out the right right. Well, what this person believes, and again she's very close to the whole family, was that when sue left the marital property, she moved into a trailer home on Mary Gillespie's property right so there was more interaction they're oddly enough, Mary Gillespie had just kicked out terence, whose parents. That's that's what I thought. Yeah, and but then she allowed Karen Sue to move in and supposedly, somehow, according to this person, not this is not me, got convinced, Mary that Paul was the letter writer and devised a scheme to is, to you know, expose him. The booby trap interesting. So I'm not saying that's true. Bull Right. If you look at it, that's all plausible. It does and makes it makes really good sense. So with that, then that means that Mary, because it's so weird, like you pulled this box down with string attached to it and she didn't really think of anything. She just put it on her bus. Then what and picked up elementary children. Think about doing that today, you know, but you know, and then at the end decides that then just look into it and then finds this gun. It doesn't even think it's the gun and then just conveniently brings it down to the you know, the sheriff's Office. Right, her actions were somewhat obvious, a curious but this again, I find this quite often when I'm reading old case files or novels or something. You know, my first reaction is get out your cell phone and make a call. They're there were no cell phones in one thousand nine hundred and eighty two, or there may have been some experimental ones, but there were no commercial cell phones and so and she was out in the country, although she could have gone just to a neighbor's house and said please call the police. She also just thought our CB on her bus right. So couldn't you have cause see me? She was already running late and maybe she just felt pressed that she had to go on. As the other driver said, it was three o'clock, because she remembered looking at her clock, because they were supposed to be at the other school at three o'clock to pick up the kids. So they were a few minutes late. Do we know what the sign said that got her to go to the booby trip? Yeah, it accused her daughter Tracy Sucking Massey's Peter. Wow, what's the word used, which is not in common vernacular anymore? Defense attorney claimed that there was no finger prints down on that gun whatsoever. You know anything about that? I think that's true. That's not uncommon. People think that if a guns been used they're going to be able to get fingerprints off the gun and identify the person. Quite often there are no fingerprints found on a gun. For one part one thing. A good part of them are ridged. The handle usually is ridge and there's only a small a few small places where you could leave a good fingerprint. So that's not uncommon. So Gordon Massy, so he is like everybody goes...

...with. Mary is being in cheat was involved a lot, but everything points back to like Gordon Massey being this terrible superintendent in a way sleeping around with tons of women. What what do you know about the thing? Is the original letters standing to be very angry at Gordon Massey not married the Espie. Yeah, they just show some real anger toward Massey and then slowly they turned to focus on Mary as the weak link to maybe stop the affair by stopping her. So she was targets, a week link. I remember in one of the early letters he even says that he needs to find one of the weaker bus drivers and get her to stop it. So yeah, so they picked Mary, maybe because she had children or something like that. What do you think? Well, I think there probably wasn't a fair going on, but you know, the person wanted to let massy known that it was going to be exposed if it didn't stop, but it apparently didn't face him at all. What do you think? Why do you think the writer cared so much about what Gordon Massey was doing or the ongoings at the school? I have no idea. It's it's part of the mystery. You know why? Why so angry? Why so relentless? You know there have been there's been speculation that it was Bassi's son who was the letter writer and or his wife. But be a lot easier for his wife just to file for divorce, you would think. Are I mean, like you know, they even like the return address on several of those letters are right to Gordon matcy's home. It's just a ploy, though, but I mean if you were living there, you wouldn't think you put it right right. So that's that's one of the mysteries. But initially the letters were pretty angry at Gordon Massey more than Mary. Mary was more of a victim. We've been pressured into an affair, and but then the towne change more and more toward Mary, perhaps because the up she was taking no steps to end the affair, apparently. And but then I just started focusing more and more and got more threatening and badinating mash he ended up being the footnote more than marrying. Hey, guys, that's it for this show. But we got much, much more coming up about the CIRCLEVILLE letters, more exciting interviews with Michael Preeley, Mariemay who. We even have more from Martin yet and we will be bringing that to you. then. We also found our own people down a circle bill that experiences with the letter writer and we're going to be giving you their story to so make sure that you're subscriber to the show. If you're not already subscribe anywhere where you get your podcast. Follow us on twitter, go to our facebook. We love interacting with you guys and want to hear your tips, in your theories. Also, just a general call. If any of you guys are listening, our forensic linguists, we want you to look at these letters or if your have a background handwrite analysis, to go to our web page, ww dot invisible ships podcastcom about all the letters, the handwritting samples, everything. I want you guys the look at these and give us your theories, your feedback. Again, we just we want to know what you think. This show maybe we produced anyway without the mission write invisible ship's productions and they'll see, as my nephew Parker says, down next time Shitmates,.

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