Invisible Ships podcast
Invisible Ships podcast

Episode · 6 months ago

Circleville Letters Part 2: Martin Yant Interview

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Martin Yant is the founder and lead private investigator at Ace Investigations a detective agency he founded after an award-winning career in journalism.
Martin Yant is probably best known for his work on the Innocence Project where he has amazingly helped free 23 people who were wrongly convicted.

But Martin Yant is also the man who brought the crazy case of the Circleville Letters to the mainstream when he was featured on Unsolved Mysteries. He is the leading authority on the case and has investigated it from the very beginning.

Does he think that Paul Freshour the man convicted of writing the letters is guilty? Find out when we sit down and discuss the Circleville Letters with Martin Yant.

 

Sim for the invisible ships podcast,where we talk about everything from true crime to Ge, truly weird, we areback and we are talking more about the circlevill letters and this episodeDani. This is a big one. It is Yanterday on the CIRCLVILLE letter. Hedid not dosay Aner ta there right, no we're going to be interviewing our mostfamous guest ever th, Martin Yan, who was actually on the unsolved mysteriesepisode about the circlebe letters. One of the things that we're really goingto be getting into today with Martin en is whether or not they have the rightguy in prison for writing their letters. You know Paul Fresh hour serve liketwelve years in prison accused as the letter, writer and Martan is theperfect person to talk to you about this, because one, no one knows moreabout the case than he does. I firmly believe that into Martinen is a bigadvocate. He's a member of the innocence project and he's worked onoverturning a lot of cases where people have been wrongfully incarcerated, andso what he has to say about. This carries a lot of weight and I can'twait to get into it. I mean he's probably like the primary source forthe circle teletters case. If you don't know what we're talking about, pleasego back and listen to our last episode, where we kind of give you an overviewof the case yeah. We did sort of a concise timeline of the case and thetimeline of events. In our last episode, it's called Circle Ville letters, partone. You could find that on apple podcast, spotify anywhere, you go toget your podcast and we also have a good timen on our website that you puttogether visible ships, podcastcom not only just the timeline, but we have allthe evidence like scans of the letters photos from the accident and the policereport, so we're trying to make probably the world' best website on theSurvo latter. Well N. it's like, we said in the last episode that we'reputting everything on there, because we want this to be an access like a sourcethat people can access to do their own investigations and all we ask youreturns just let us know what you find out. We are really excited about someof the new members and listeners that we have on the visible ship podcastspecially the people from Circleville, because we really want to try to get acore of people that live in that area because we're telling their story. Thishappened in their community and their voices are important and who knows then,like they may know, people that receive letters that were the victims of theCircla leterator yeah, now circleville Columbus. Anyone in that area, thosewere all the locations that were key to this whole event. Right and you know wewere in Circleville like a few weeks back and it's a cool little place. Imean the downtown area is very cool. It's historic and there's aninteresting history just to the whole town too, because it was built on topof a circular Indian mound. You know we got a pamphlet from the hitoricalsociety, all about the founding of Circleville and everything like that.So do you get the freaking pamphlet, read it. Why sirpleville compliments ofthe Pickway County, his Dorp Society text by Howard Jones? You don't need toread all of it. Three prominent citizens were selected to explore theland that would become pickway county. These men were David Bradford, GeorgeJackson and John Pollick. They traversed the territory and finally,located the place for the county seat. Ind a densely wooded circular, bit ofland surrounded by an earthen wall. There were towns of several hundredinhabitants within a few miles at this place. No one knows why this committeeselected the mound builders enclosure. The first written account of the circle.Onince adjason square is in the diary of David Jones, my tenerant preacher,who in seventeen sixty made a short stay among the Shawni Indians. Sincethis time archeologis have described it, measured it and what it is to its use.There were two concentric wualls with the moat between and closing thetownsite. The walls were about ten feet high and the ditch about ten feet. Deep.The diameter of the Otter Wall according to Cale Abou at water wassixty nine rods. Watt inside of the square was tangent to the circle, wit,the gateway between the square had only a single wall about ten peet high, witheight openings and each side measured fifty five rods, so it was sort of likemaybe a burial site or a sacred space.

So you build a town on top of Indianburial. Moun slash sacred space, so you know, there's gon be some weird stuffin your future. You kind of asking for trouble. So you know what I wasthinking like. This would be a really good topic for, like a future episode,we're going to put that in the hopper. But now I mean seriously. CIRCLVILLE isa cool place to visit. I would love to go there in Halloween. It is slightlycreepy, yeah and they're famous for their pumpkin festival. It's reallycool. When you drive in to town their water tower is a giant pump kin exactlyyeah they're known for it they're? No for it. It's cool and if you love thefall, which, if you're from Ohio you pretty much Love Tho fall, it's got tobe a cool place to go. I did want to make one note for historical accuracyat this point in time. The town is no longer circular shaped. They ended upsquaring the circle at sometime in the eighteen hundred. I think big mistakehat's a big mistake. It seems, like everyone regrets it. We already toldyou that Martinen is the World Wide Authority on the circlebill lettershe's also a former journalist he's the president of Ace investigations andhe's a big time advocate for those that are wrongly incarcerated, all rightDarren. Let's call Martinan Mationvestigations Mara, Hey Marty,this is Darren. How are you all right? How are you day, I'm doing good? Areyou okay to do this interview? Yeah? Think one thing I want to do is go backand get your original email, which I think havs your information. Let me getyour dress. My My home address. You Want my home address. Yeah. Myaddress is seven nine, so you know that's a little strange. Usually weaskd the questions, but we knew that Martinett was going to be thorough andwe were really excited to just get into the circle vill letters case and talkabout that with him. Okay, I had a chance to do some work on thisthis week and have reread the trial transcript. All right continues to raise questionsevery time I read through it. I see something else, but how did you findout about the story begin with, so we explaine to Martin that we becamefamiliar with the circle vil case through onsolv mysteries and thewhatever remains podcast hosted by Marie Mahu, and then we got into moredetails in our interview with him and then Martin Worn Iso. The case has astrange way of pulling you in and not let hing go yeah. It's fascinating andaddictive, so be careful yeahit's too late already in yeah. I think I have told you Darin that I had one privateinvestigotor applied to me for a job and we read my background. He gotinterested in the circle little case, then. He called me back a few monthslater asked for job update and then he started ask me questions about thecircle of letters because he got interested in them also and had beenkeeping up on things. So once Itd bite you it's hard to get ridof there's so much to this case. You know it's kind of hard to like sortthrough it. All we've been working, I've been talking to Marie and she was able to send us over all thestuff that she pulled. So we've been going through like thecourt case and the accident report, and you know the original letters so likeone of the questions that I had was when you read online everything saysone thousand nine hundred and seventy six when it begin, but like the firstletters that I can find are really seventy seven. What is it? Is it?Seventy seven? Then it sterted that's Wut. Apparently it started with Mary. Ithink she received her first letter in seventy seven. There are references toseventy six I've seen that several other places. I have a timeline someresearcher put together...

...and he starts the timeline on Tusand,nine hundred and seventy six beginning of vindictive letter sent to residenceof circlevill. Thousands of letters would be sent over the years now. Thatcould be an exaggeration about how many letters were sent, but there certainlywere hundreds yeah in in the fresh hour court case, I saw where they madereference to a thousand letters yeahthat's, what I think Suriff Radcliff said yeah, but there's not really a trueaccount of how many now that is, that what the police would have had or isthat alic break Rad cliff said that they hada thousand leers okay, but they only released the thirty nine, which becamecore exibits yeah. Is there a way to get a hold of them or or is that likean ongoing? So it's not a close case. I think I tried think other people have triedsubsequently and they're gone. They wouldn't have any reason to keep themreally Jus, as I can tell their God. Okay. So when did you start gettinginvolved? In the case I followed it. I was commentary editor at the Colnisdispatch and a colonist, so I followed the trial and in that period I wasbecoming more and more interested in wrongful convictions nationally that as well as locally, andwe had a couple big wrongful conviction cases here in Columbus in the age that I wrote about and then I was given advanced copy of the veryimportant films at Thin Blue Line N. That was given to me by the mother ofthe sus of the suspect, Randaldale Adams, and it showed very dramaticallyhow he had been praying for a murder in Texas and sentence to death, and that was very eyeopening to a lotof people that got alotof publicly. But listening. I wrote a number of columnsin articles about it and remain friends with Randal Dale, AdamSafras released for a long time. So that's when I started thinking theremight be a book in this during the same formative period, a reporter friend, the name of RobinYokum, had a series of articles called reasonable doubt and he wrote a storyabout the letter writers and how, even though call freshhars been in prisonfor several years, that the letters were continuing to bemailed all over picaway county and some to surrounding areas, and no one couldfigure out who was doing it, although the sheriff, of course incested thatPaul fresh hour and had done it, I was interested in Sheriff radcliffseperately because I had at really got me into the investgativeside of journalism was in one thoand. Nine hundred and seventy eight haseditor the Mansfield News Journal. I exposed treat deal of corruption in theRichlond County, sheriffs office that ultimately led to the sheriff'sconviction, along with seven of his deputies, and so back my mind. I also had an idea aboutcorrup Sharis, because everywhere I look, there was a cruptiureof beingcharged for something and right during this period. SheriffRadcliff, I believe, was president of the National Sheriffs Association andwas believed to be the longest serving shareoff in office. At that time it was.It was generational with that family right yeah it it has until like thelast year or two, it has been controlled by the family. It's exceptfor. Like one four year break Wen white ragliss spotter die after servingsomething like thirty years, then white...

...radcliff took over four years later andhe controlled it for about thirty or more years, and then he gave it up tohis son, who continued to have it, for, I think, twelve years and he justpretty amazingly, got defeated or when he ran for reelection, but they hadcontrol that office for several decades and Charwit Rad Cliv treated to like alittle feast, and there are all kinds of signs of corruption and the types ofthings that I had found. An other crrup sheriffs across the country and being president of National ShariffsAssociation did not impress me because right around that period, the president of the National Sheriff'sAssociation committed suicide after federal agents raised to rated hisoffice and found something like three hundred thousand dollars: cash thatheas safened off fines or something wew. So being you know, being President N,national, Sharis and association isn't going to impress me a lot well, Mardenand the letter writer are in agreement about sheriff fredkifs corruption, thedates that redcliff was actually the NSA president were fro, one thousandnine hundred and eighty seven oe oethousand nine hundred and eightyeight o one housand nine hundred and sevty seven. He wasn't actuallypresident so yeah, it's a very anquated office that shouldn't exist. It's aconstant as source of trouble in government and I think it should be abolished. It's almost been a ballwaste on theeast coast. Do you mean elected sheriffs should be lolished? Okay, andit was at this point of the interview where we change gears and we wanted toknow how Martin himself got so involved in the circlevill letters case. That'san interesting story. I was first contacted by Paul Freshour and wifeMarylyn in one thousand nine hundred andninety three. I believe I think whatI did is. I wrote a story for they coonus alternative newspaper Columbusalive which at that time did investigative journalism, but I get abig story on it at that time and I got a few calls, including one threateningphone call, but then that kind of died down. That story made us way toMaryland Freshhour Paul's wife, who called me and wanted to meet with me,and she gave me information and told me: Maybe I should dig deeper and she would give me which she had soI started looking into it more and kept finding all kinds of odities about it,but that started in ninety three. I wrote an article about it which causesloster Bu. That was about it. You know I'd, get an occasional phone call orletter or something, but that's pretty much the way things wereback. Then you know tha. There wasn't any kind of massive reaction usually toa story that all that change with the Internet so going back though so you got athreatening letter when you were trying to write this threatening letter when the storyappeared in colonisal lives. Well of somebody who had a particular complaintthat caused me to think they knew something they. It was a call in themiddle of the night. Woke me up and it was a woman, and she said I read yourstory about Paul freshouer and I see you mentioned that an Al Camina wasseen by the place where the sign was found.Don't ever mention that Alcamino again- and I said I said, what's s the big GoaI said I didn't say somebody had an Elcamino that Paul fresherondagnel,Camino or anybody else. I didn't mention any names, a streiht from thepolice report, which I think may have been withheld, but I said it's rightfrom the police report. It's not something I made up...

...and she just said just don't evermention it again. It hung up so going to Ron's accident. So do you think that that Ron's caraccident was related to the letter writers like? Do you think he got thatletter or got that phone? Call that that got him out and was ron talking to the the person thatwas tormenting the family? The letter writer when he left the house there'snothing in the police report the press or case that nventions that death andlinking it in any way to the letters exactly what happened and Ho said whatis hard to say. But you know sometimes. I think that this was just a fanciful theory that kind of got intothe narratives. That Ron got a call from the letter writerhe figured out who it was decided to go, confront the letterwriter just his daughter, good, bye and drovedown roden crashed and was killed. So I guess we read the transcript and that narrative is in there, so thatnarrative has been around to the point that apparently it waspart of Mary Galesbie story that he did get a call. He had reasonto go out. He was trying to locate the letterwriter when he crashed and that person was on the phone. Idon't know I'm going to try to reach the daughter.He supposedly gave a kiss do by and told her he'd be back shortly, but whether that exists or it's just adramatic story- that's been added. I can't tell you the action of yourself probably could have been betterinvestigated. One thing: Thats of interest about sheriff,radcliff and Thi. The title of my folkon sheriffs is called Tinstar tires. He acted like a tyrant and it even mentions that the highwaypatrol complained that he would not allow the patrol to investigateaccidents in pickaway county that were on state highways. HMM, they normally investigate those most sheriffs.Welcome their investigation because they're far better and more thoroughback then at least the state patrol couldnt Investigateanaccidents in pickaway county without being invited in by the sheriff. So they get this investigationthemselves, and I think you know that could be part of theproblem. Everyone seems to be an agreement that the sheriff's apartmentkind of dropped, the ball when it came to investigating wrong Gelesbie'saccident. The letter writer has maintained that Ron was murdered and alot of other people kind of think that there was some foul playng involved toso we talke to Martin about why that narrative exist. Why people think thatthis death on five points pike was so suspicious. Fangolespe did take a gunwith him or at a store in his pickup truck at some clear, but when he was found, the gun was on the floor and it appeared that one bullet had beendischarged yeah. I just read that place report. I said like that the gun wasfound. I think, underneath him on the ground and then yeah that therewas there was a discharged round but mean it's hard to say when that roundwas discharged right right, the so the weird part is is looking on a map andlooking at where Ron would have left...

...and to get to five points like hedefinitely wasn't going is on the opposite way of Circleville. You knowhe was kind of going out to is w mean what else? What would be out that waythat you would want to go? You know at ten at night yea, it's allmysterious and bizarre how much of a sinister I don't know, I'm gonna try to get some more answers. I riginallytried to talk to marry to LESB. She would nottalk to me. I try to talk to he daughter and at that time she would not talk to me. The only person would talk to me fromthat side of the family was the oldest daughter, Gon. Okay, so I couldn't get much familyinformation from their point of view. Heis certainly appears to be mitr mysterious,but he did have quite a bit of booze in a system, so it could have just been accident cause by Alcoholi everythingthat we see written about this. They make a point all the publications thatRon wasn't much of a drinker yeah. That's even what Paul sister still havetold me recently thut, they didn't know him to be a drinker. I don't want to get into personalities a whole lot, but, let'sjust say, heavy use of alcohol is not unusual in bat family and he had, I think, pointundre, six mm percent, so he was like devil over the limit and that's a goodbit of alcohol. What the truth there is. Perhaps this letter wraier had justgotten into this, sent that he was dranging his sorrows and whose I think he was capable of more drinking than alot of people want to say that hi was. Do you think that we can assume if thiswas the call from the literator that he recognized that person's voice? I meanthat's what caused him to leave the House that Ar my Tan Temy Lesh? That's astory. I don't know, I don't know if that call occurred, I don't think they tried to get kincoming pone call records back then what you could, but it was certainly a more combersome process and so we'll never know. Martin proceeding the accident beforeiron died. Were the police really concerned about these letters or issomething they just assumed was not really even part of their mandate. Toinvestigate they were more of an irritornt. You know some of themcriticize the sheriff and that at some point- and I can't say exactly before Paul Presh hour after sow of them- started having whitepowder in them, which in some cases was determined tobe Arsnak, so somebody was getting pretty serious wow. He really wanted to do DM. It's notjust I'm sorr PP. I said the whoever was Sundin that wanted to really dodamage and Hert people not just upset people yeah, it's all very concerningif you read them all or a lot of them at one time. You can't help butconclude that this is a pretty sick person, very cruel, very crude, like at one point. It talksa lout about Gordon Massy and married gelessmehappening to wear close pins on their noses because ofall the poop in their pants and...

...ventalke. A lot aboutpoopy pants andbizarre things like that that it just really not what you think an adultwould be saying. Even if they wanted to say something Furll, they would come upwith something better than poopy panch. Will you bring me to something thatI've been dying to ask you? I've been reading through some of the letters,the ones that are available in the syntax, the structure of how thisperson's using language is so off? It's. I got the impression that maybe thisperson didn't speak English as a first language. I want to know what your takeis on that I don't know. One of the people contacted me over the years was a gradual assistant to a Georgetown llanguishd Trentic linguish, and they were going to try to analyzethe writing and see if they could make any kind of determination aboutwho may have the letters and Frenci Clinglis doesn't just lookat the shape and form of the letters, but also the language itself and theSyntex, and so I was kind of hopeful for that. But then the Grad studentdisappeared as like so mafthe other things I get contacted and somebodygoes a little further with it and then theygive up and disappear. But you know it would be nice to have it the letters more thoroughlyanalyzed Ye. I know so very good handwriting analyst, not somebody who you know, got a maleorder. Certificate and they're quite often consulted all overthe world, so they know their stuff, but they're not cheap. So and I've beendoing this pairbones budget in a particularinterest in it other than it's an intriguing myster, but all that changed to a certainextent after the Internet took off in Twohsano. I hadn't really heard much ofanything about the letters since I wrote the first article in onethousand, nine hundred and ninety three, an acter insalt mysteries ran with itand then you know there w's a spark of interest and then it died down. Thenall of a sudden right around twohsand. I start getting emails from people all over the country and insome cases, all over the world wanting to know more about the Shirpol wetterWright and that's been kind of a constant stream of inquiry. Since then and Igot to the point that I just couldn'tkeep up with it. I have much more important cases to work on deathpenalty cases, dam from deat, planty cases down and but every time I try to put it aside orturn down a podcast interview, it kind of bounces back, and so it's been with me for almost thirty years, but the handwriting is very interesting. The Syntax isinteresting. Some of this could have been delivered. A lot of it comes offas country boysh and which could all be a rouse, but it's all very intriguing as well lotsof mispellings, you know or writing to instead of twl. When he's talking abouttwo weeks- and you know, fresh Ouer has like what' a Master's agree and I thinkhe may have had two masters degrees. Actually he was ougammy. He was no genius. His sisters helped him get through.Grad school had two sisters who were...

...very devoted to him: They'r very tightly knipted family. Sohe was spart, but I think he was more book smart than Streech Mark. So Iguess, like the question, is, is why why do you feel so strongly? Paul wasinnocent when he admitted to sheriff radcliff. For writing. Approximatelyforty to fifty letters, but first of all, I'm not absolutelyconvinced that Paul was innocent. Okay, I think he was, I think he waswrongly convicted. He really got railroad in trial. Thejudge was very unfair. There were some bizarre occurrences that I'm going tohave to check with some defense attorneys about, but some things that were allowed in that Ikind of think probably shouldn't have been and and then there's this one report thatmentions two other bus drivers Seeng some kind of vehicle right nearthe sane right before all this happened and there's no mention of it at all. In fact, I just noticed last night, oneof the two bus drivers whe saw that hisabe quite a bit was called as a witness to verify just that she was driving behindmarried that day ind another bus and she saw Mary pull over, get out of her bus inger down and grabit. This sign, while she was driving by they, didn't ask her anything aboutShaing, a orange car which she described as aDaga with the black with black, covering theback end of it wasn't even asked that you know here'ssome strange character right at the scene and they don't ask her about it. Butthen the second person gave a much better description, described it as an yellow, Orni ororange El Camino, and said that a large man was standing outside and he turned away when she was drivingby acting like he had to go to the bathroom or something, and there was something covered in a tarpin the back of the Alcamino Hmm, and that was never mentioned in court. Paul same not to know anything about itwhen I brought it to his attention, so I have a feeling won or both of these sitings. They havebeen withhelp from the defense so with to Paul. At this point, was goingthrough a pretty messy divorce with is well, then t exwife, Karen Yeah Ethat, that whole timeline is veryintriguing. She left him. I believe, in August of eighty two font Paul filed for divorce on October,twenty eight Hnd nine hundred a d. eighty two, then I think, even after he filed theShins started popping up with more frequency and then the booby trapappeared February, seventh, one thousand ninehundred and eighty three. So all within a three four month period, thingsreally went south to Paul Right and then so so Paul's, the gun that he purchased from his coworker, was in the box. Andbut my question is, is where was Paul...

Living in reference to Karenet? So theywere. They were separate, Pawat his own house, or did he maintain the house inthe divorce? He was San, the marital property and he got the meritalproperty in the divorce. He did very well in the divorce that all change. Of course, after hegot convicted, he got the house, he got custody of thekids and so Su lost pretty significantly, coincidentally, everything escalatesright, yeah, so the sames escalate, and then this this attempt on by by the end she had the holiday hills, property had custody of the children, of course, and I think, had gotten a good portionof his pension. So there's a lot of motive huh.You could say that so I guess like the question like reading through the courtdocuments, you know like the box, matched Amheiser Bush's box and his gunwas purchased. You know so like from a you know, so I mean everything kind ofresembles that and then the yeah, the chalk. I meaneverything kind of resembles where it all kind of came from something tlikestuff pulled from that house. Is that what you kind of were coming toa conclusion with somebody ACX? If Paul didn't, do it? Somebody access that house to get thestuff to put it together? Correct interesting trthe were stillinteractions and, if you look first of all Paul saidhe never admitted to the sheriff that he wrote letters and there's norecordings of these interviews, but when Paul was asked about, the gun wasconfronted, that the gun in to booby trap was his is response supposedly was I take full responsibility for the gun?Very odd reaction? You know it wasn't yeah it's my gun. Idid this. You got me it was. I take ful responsibility for the gun with an theymade a similar remark later that he did not want to talk about the gun now for into sepearate witnesses, one of whom I got a statement from ten years later. The reason he didn't want to talk aboutthe gun is he suspected that his son Mark had stolen it? I read somethingabout that that he was trying to protect like s his child. Possibly Iand he told him this one neighbor. He said I don't want to DDRAG him intothis, but he would have stoled it. So if we go down that road, he would havestole it for Karen Sue Right. That would be the theory it would yeah.I do have one witness who were hoping to interview soon he's beenvery ill with the flu, but not want the corona virus. The other flu apparently can reallyknock you for a look too absolutely, but she was very close to the familyand she said Mark told her that he stole the gun, and so she said she told Mark and Marksaid just let it go interest that Om. That's a big deal, that's kind of new, so that yeah, that kind of could explain thegun and that would change everything.Martin, because I would mean that the motive for the sign was to...

...change the outcome of a divorce, and ithad really nothing to do with Mary Glesbe at all other than the fact thatthey needed to use herd to frame Paul, freshhouser right right, El Wat,this person believes and again she's very close to the whole family. was that when sue left the miricalproperty, she moved into a trailer home on Mary Gelespie's property right. So there was more interaction.They're godly enough Mary calesspe had just kicked out parent who's parents,that's that's what I saw yeah and but then she allowed Karen Su tomove in supposedly somehow, according to this person, not yeah.This is not me, got convince Mary. That Paul was the letter.Writer and devise TA scheme to us is to youknow, expose him the booby trap interesting. So I'm not saying that's true bry. If you look at it, that's all plausible, it does an makes. It makes really goodsense. So with that, then that means that Mary,because it's so weird like you, pulled this box down with string attached toit and she didn't really think of anything.She just put it on her bus then want and picked up elementary children.Think about doing that today. You know, but you know, and then at the end decidesto then just look into it and then finds this gun. It doesn't even thinkit's the gun and then just conveniently brings it down to the you know the sheriff's office right.Her actions were somewhat obvious, curious ut. Thisagain, I find this quite often when I'm reading, oncase files or gobiles or something you know. My firstreaction is get out your cellphone and make a call. There were no cell phones in oethousand nine hundred and eighty two or their Vaya Ben Ome, experimental ones,but there were no commercial cell phones and so- and she was out in the country,although she could have gone just to a neighbor's house and said, please call the police she als j, Oter CB on her bus right. So couldn't you Apas Itout, see me a good point. She was already runninglate and maybe she just felt pressed that she had to go on. As the otherdriver said, it was three o'clock because she remembered looking at herclock because they were supposed to be at the other school at three o'clock topick up the kids, so they were few minutes Lep do we know what the signsaid that got her to to go to the booby trip yeah it achuse her daughter, Tracy,shucking, Massy's Peter wew. What's the word use, which is not incommon,gernacular anymore, freshours defense attorney claim that there was nofigerprints fon on that gun whatsoever. You know anything about that. I thinkthat's true. That's not uncommon. People think thatif a guns peen used they're going to be able to get fingerprints off the gunand identify the person, quite often there are no finger printsfound on a gun. For one part, one thing a good part of them are riched. Thehandle usually is rige and there's only a small few smallplaces where you could leave a good fingerprint, so that' shot uncommon,...

...so Gordon Massy, so he is likeeverybody goes with Mary is being and she was involved a lot, but everythingpoints back to like Gordon Massy being this terrible superintendent in a waysleeping around with tons of women. What what do you know about the thingis the original letters samd to be very angry at Gordon Mashy,not Mary galeshmy yeah. They just show some real anger towardmassy and then slowly they turnd to focus on there as the week link tomaybe stop the affair by stopping her. So she was targetas the week link TMSI, remember one of the early letters.He even says that he needs to find one of the weaker bus drivers and gether to stop it so yeah, so they picked Mary, maybe because she had children orsomething like that. What do you think well, I think there probably was anaffair going on, but ou the person wanted to let massy known that it was going tobe exposed. If it didn't stop. Butit apparently didn't face him at all. Whatdo you think? Why do you think the writer cared so much about what GordonMassy was doing or the ongoings at the school? I have no idea it's it's part of the mystery. You know why.Why so angry? Why so relentless you know, thereave been there's beenspeculation that it was bastsy son who was the letter, writer and or his wife, but be a lot easier for his wife just tofile for divorce. You would think- or I mean like youknow they even like the return address on several of those letters- are rightto Gordon Massy's home. I thinhat's just e ploy though, but I mean if youwere living there, you wouldn't think you put it right right. So that's that's one of the mysteries, butinitially the letters were pretty angry at Gordon Massy, more than Mary Mary was more of a victim. It benpressured into an afhair and but then the ton change more and more toward Mary. Perhaps because the she was taking those steps to end theAvera, apparently and but then it just started. Focusing moreand more and GT more threatening in bact in lasthe ended up deing thefut O more than Marin. Hey guys, that's it for this show, but we got much muchmore coming up about the circubal letters, more exciting interviews withMichael Preley Marimawho. We even have more from Martin Yea, and we will bebringing that to you en. We also found our own people down a Circibil thatexperiences with the letter writer and we're going to be giving you theirstory to so make sure that you're subscriber to the show, if you're notalready subscribe anywhere, where you get your podcast, follow us on twitter.Go to our facebook, we love interacting with you guys and want to hear yourtips ind. Your theories also just a general call, if any of you guys arelistening to our forensic linguists. We want you to look at these letters Morif your have a background, handwrit analysis to go to our webpgeww dot,invisible ships, podcastcom got all the letters, the hanwriting sampleseverything. I want you guys to look at these and give us your theories, yourfeedback, an again we just we want to know what you think part of this show,maybe reproduced anyway, without the mission copywrighting, visible ships,productions and LC caus. My nephew...

Parker says until next time KIT MAKES.

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